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Violin Id


jandepora
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Hello, I need to know your opinions about this violin.

It seems that it is built on the back with the ribs on a channel. The purfling looks like whalebone (?) the top is one piece and the back too. The bottom rib is in one piece. The linnings looks like not inserted in the corner blocks that are like an equilateral triangle. The scroll fluting is carving till the end. It has a Stainer label.

The lob is 353mm.

Here are the pictures. Thank you all.

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Ok, I will embarrass myself and say what everyone else is thinking before the experts turn up.

Assuming the purfling really is Whalebone then I guess the first port of call for that type of construction is Dutch school of some type as the French rarely seemed to use Whalebone.

And then we have the Italian school of Gragnani and Baldatoni, but I am quite sure the experts will rule those out.

As to what it really is I dont have a clue.

 

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It’s probably not much help, but I think I would pigeonhole that as French mid 18th C. Not an area of expertise of mine, and French colleagues might disagree. I wonder if it originally had a through neck? If so the state of the upper back looks a bit like someone had a bad day trying to remove it.

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5 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

It’s probably not much help, but I think I would pigeonhole that as French mid 18th C. Not an area of expertise of mine, and French colleagues might disagree. I wonder if it originally had a through neck? If so the state of the upper back looks a bit like someone had a bad day trying to remove it.

Also looks Vieux Paris to me ... 

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Thank you.

With this lob of 353mm and a one piece top could be Vieux Paris? Who made violins in France with this lob and Stainer model in 18c.?

About the purfling, do you think it is whalebone?

29 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

I wonder if it originally had a through neck?

I couldn't see a plateau in the back.

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29 minutes ago, jandepora said:

With this lob of 353mm and a one piece top could be Vieux Paris? Who made violins in France with this lob and Stainer model in 18c.?

Yes, the very large LOB is more a thing of the late 18th and 19th century.

The whalebone purfling (what it appears to be) makes me wonder if it could be made by one of the French trained immigrants maybe in the Netherlands or, considering your location, in Spain.

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45 minutes ago, Blank face said:

Yes, the very large LOB is more a thing of the late 18th and 19th century.

The whalebone purfling (what it appears to be) makes me wonder if it could be made by one of the French trained immigrants maybe in the Netherlands or, considering your location, in Spain.

353 not 363 ....?

Personally the model reminds me a bit of Guersan but it's all cruder - I wonder if Blank Face is thinking about Lefebvre?

Are you sure the purfling is the same front and back? The edgework seems rather flatter on the table. Also the scroll varnish looks very different to the rest.

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7 minutes ago, martin swan said:

353 not 363 ....?

 

IMG_20210603_124537.thumb.jpg.ddd29c4a4da5266759b9f9e71877a830.jpg

10 minutes ago, martin swan said:

Are you sure the purfling is the same front and back? The edgework seems rather flatter on the table. Also the scroll varnish looks very different to the rest

IMG_20210603_123800.thumb.jpg.c3cfde5c7455716515a3e38b9f6d2a30.jpgIMG_20210603_123853.thumb.jpg.b4bd3daa384e2fb5ffd42f5bcfe76e16.jpgIMG_20210603_123931.thumb.jpg.34b4579cc164dc527a33cf8cbae37b83.jpgIMG_20210603_124008.thumb.jpg.6af0b6d99796daa1736b4834cc052df9.jpgIMG_20210603_124035.thumb.jpg.f41c4002b38e42e833ffff2c3e1a191d.jpgIMG_20210603_124039.thumb.jpg.198eb6e275c9cd1a9c0b597e3c334f3a.jpgIMG_20210603_124035.thumb.jpg.f41c4002b38e42e833ffff2c3e1a191d.jpgIMG_20210603_124039.thumb.jpg.198eb6e275c9cd1a9c0b597e3c334f3a.jpgIMG_20210603_124023.thumb.jpg.d3e522d4bc799ebe9c0d1e4bb5073176.jpgIMG_20210603_124117.thumb.jpg.467f1d8e01e5f5b29f8db29fc21b5768.jpgIMG_20210603_124122.thumb.jpg.c1c78b6213c532b91216caf88d097e8c.jpgIMG_20210603_124119.thumb.jpg.e44af15701a74b693d19db67ad47409f.jpg

IMG_20210603_123835.jpg

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In the new enlarged photos the purfling now looks like dyed, not so even and shiny like whalebone, but to me the same overall.

1 hour ago, martin swan said:

 I wonder if Blank Face is thinking about Lefebvre?

The model is similar, but the scroll and edgework very different. I'm assuming that the darker colour of the scroll is a result of dirt accumulation, possibly compacted by overcoating.

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25 minutes ago, Blank face said:

In the new enlarged photos the purfling now looks like dyed, not so even and shiny like whalebone, but to me the same overall.

The model is similar, but the scroll and edgework very different. I'm assuming that the darker colour of the scroll is a result of dirt accumulation, possibly compacted by overcoating.

Shellac has been applied recently hasn't it?

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12 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

What remedial actions do you propose on the back in the button area?

The first thing I would do would be to take everything apart (neck, block, ribs) to see what's going on there, maybe a failed patch or other repair attempts. The following actions would depend on this, but surely include to straighten it step by step again, probably at the end in a cast, including an inlaid patch.

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The violin gives the feeling to be very consistent in all the repaired parts. It has a repaired label from 1956 by Rodolfo Schwarz figglio di Giovanni in Beyrouth.

It has the top edge doubled. It seems like the violin has been sleeping some years and I don't know if it has shellac applied recently. 

 

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45 minutes ago, Blank face said:

The first thing I would do would be to take everything apart (neck, block, ribs) to see what's going on there, maybe a failed patch or other repair attempts. The following actions would depend on this, but surely include to straighten it step by step again, probably at the end in a cast, including an inlaid patch.

Removing the ribs from a back which has the ribs let into a grove without collateral damage is a tedious job that isn’t to be sniffed at, just as putting it back together into a grove can be quite fraught, although I suppose sending the OP on errands could be fun:)

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Probably it would be enough to remove the ribs in the upper bouts, where the deformations occured. In the following they could be shortened where they meet the neck, and making a new upper block would be necessary anyway I'm supposing. Otherwise I agree that this construction isn't repair friendly at all.:mellow:

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55 minutes ago, jandepora said:

The violin gives the feeling to be very consistent in all the repaired parts. It has a repaired label from 1956 by Rodolfo Schwarz figglio di Giovanni in Beyrouth.

It has the top edge doubled. It seems like the violin has been sleeping some years and I don't know if it has shellac applied recently. 

 

1956 is recent enough for me for the shellac.

Will you string it up to see if anything moves, or do you think that might be too risky?

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2 hours ago, sospiri said:

Will you string it up to see if anything moves, or do you think that might be too risky?

The violin is now fully functionally, no problem with the cracks or structural consistence. The sound is powerfull and projective. The only problem is the vibrating string legth. The f holes seems to be high and the istance betwen the top rib and the f hole notch is around 185mm. The vibrating string is only 320mm.

 

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