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How does a violin reproduce overtones? - Theorizing a model


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16 hours ago, sospiri said:

but does the rest of the instrument need to be light in weight? 

Not really. 

One of my motivations to try to build a super light violin was an advertisement from a carbon violin manufacturer who was a kind of bragging how light it is, implying of course that it is better than a wooden violin. So I just thought 'Wood is better than carbon fiber, the rest is a matter of craftsmanship, I can beat that!'

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43 minutes ago, Don Noon said:

The critical higher frequencies are just too complex to deal with in an analytical way.

It really looks like the jungle in higher frequency regions. 

But I would think that some analytical genius might develop a method to analyze the jungle and find the key to all.

Because this person won't be me I rather stick to 'medival alchemical recipes' based on 'do this and you can expect this result'. Built up in a systematic way one can do with this philosophy IMO quite amazing things. 

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9 hours ago, Peter K-G said:

Top and back work together and they both has to have great wood, for it to be a powerful soloist violin. Ribs and linings in the normal range doesn't make much difference.

Thats the traditional view on violin making. 

For my latest adventures in violin making the ribs became VERY important and are by no means in normal dimensions any more.

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40 minutes ago, Andreas Preuss said:

Thats the traditional view on violin making. 

For my latest adventures in violin making the ribs became VERY important and are by no means in normal dimensions any more.

I still think that this is way to go, make as good as you can violins by traditional concept and as close as possible with in a certain range.

Then small one at a time adjustment, to at least have some control/understanding over the outcome of the change.

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One learned lesson over the past 10 years is wait and the wait some more.

The first excitment over a change or two is often, just fooling yourself.

As I told earlier, I have just picked up research object 2014. Together with lots of data at making stage and later measurements over the years I have a lot of understanding of the object

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14 minutes ago, Andreas Preuss said:

Yep. I think it is interesting to notice how small the membrane is and still makes a pretty loud sound.

I estimate the python snakeskin membrane used in the erhu weighs about 10g or about 1/7 of a violin plate.  I estimate its area is also about 1/7 the area of a violin plate.   Since sound output of a plate is generally proportional to its area squared divided by its weight squared the erhu has probably about the same loudness as a violin. 

Bu I've never seen a side by side loudness test.

 

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1 minute ago, Marty Kasprzyk said:

I estimate the python snakeskin membrane used in the erhu weighs about 10g or about 1/7 of a violin plate.  I estimate its area is also about 1/7 the area of a violin plate.   Since sound output of a plate is generally proportional to its area squared divided by its weight squared the erhu has probably about the same loudness as a violin. 

Bu I've never seen a side by side loudness test.

 

 I read the "Bu" as But".  This is similar to the brain compensating for the missing fundamental in a violin's bowed G string.

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1 hour ago, Andreas Preuss said:

Not really. 

One of my motivations to try to build a super light violin was an advertisement from a carbon violin manufacturer who was a kind of bragging how light it is, implying of course that it is better than a wooden violin. So I just thought 'Wood is better than carbon fiber, the rest is a matter of craftsmanship, I can beat that!'

So will he up the ante with a Graphene violin?

Then what?

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13 minutes ago, Marty Kasprzyk said:

 I read the "Bu" as But".  This is similar to the brain compensating for the missing fundamental in a violin's bowed G string.

Don't we make the G string growl instead of fart, to give an illusion of a strong fundamental?

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On 5/31/2021 at 5:30 PM, Marty Kasprzyk said:

The Chinese erhu uses a membrane of python skin and it sounds better than many violins.

No, it does not. It sounds like an erhu.

If a (proper) violin sounds like an erhu then, it simply means it sounds like crap.  A violin must sound like a violin and respond like one. Enthusiasts trying to beat Old Man Strad need familiarize themselves with what exactly that means.

I would be happy to supply you with a couple of samples of proper violin tone.

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30 minutes ago, Carl Stross said:

If a (proper) violin sounds like an erhu then, it simply means it sounds like crap. 

That was the obvious implication of Marty's comment about the sound of his own violins.

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2 minutes ago, Don Noon said:

That was the obvious implication of Marty's comment about the sound of his own violins.

I've never heard a really good player say my violin sounds like crap.  They are very kind and sensitive.

They usually say something like--"this has its own unique voice" which means it sounds like crap.

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2 hours ago, Marty Kasprzyk said:

I've never heard a really good player say my violin sounds like crap.  They are very kind and sensitive.

They usually say something like--"this has its own unique voice" which means it sounds like crap.

How true.

 

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3 hours ago, Don Noon said:

That was the obvious implication of Marty's comment about the sound of his own violins.

 I interpreted it as him being a music lover and musical instrument enthusiast.

Maybe I'm projecting?

3 hours ago, Carl Stross said:

No, it does not. It sounds like an erhu.

If a (proper) violin sounds like an erhu then, it simply means it sounds like crap.  A violin must sound like a violin and respond like one. Enthusiasts trying to beat Old Man Strad need familiarize themselves with what exactly that means.

I would be happy to supply you with a couple of samples of proper violin tone.

Please do. I'm quite enthusiastic about these enthusiasts and what you can teach them.

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4 hours ago, Carl Stross said:

 Enthusiasts trying to beat Old Man Strad need familiarize themselves with what exactly that means.

I would be happy to supply you with a couple of samples of proper violin tone.

 

1 hour ago, Carl Stross said:

 

 

Is that sample number one of proper violin tone,  or sample number two?

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On 5/29/2021 at 12:01 PM, Anders Buen said:

Do anybody know what theoretical drop of harmonic levels one may expect from bowing the string? That is what you get before the bridge and body "shape" the sound. It may depend on bowing position, I guess. 

For a theoretical TRIANGULAR wave, the amplitude of each harmonic varies as 1/n^2. There are only odd harmonics.

So if we give the fundamental (n=1) a relative amplitude of 1 , then the third harmonic has an amplitude of 1/9, the fifth harmonic has an amplitude 1/25, and so forth.

A theoretical sawtooth wave has all the harmonics and the amplitudes decrease as 1/n. (Thank you Marty for the correction to my previous post.)

Since the shape of the actual wave traveling along the violin string is something akin to an asymmetric triangle, you would need to measure it experimentally. I participated in some studies with a forum member a few years back. He setup a test bed and measured the reaction force over time at one end of a bowed string.

I took the resulting data file performed a fourier analysis of it. Harmonic amplitude was not 1/n, nor  1/n^2, but some monotonically decreasing value. I used the amplitudes from the fourier analysis and mathematically created a tone by adding sine waves together. It sounded oboe-like. This would be the "input" into the bridge and violin.

A violin would not reproduce this oboe sound because of phase shifting, damping and variation in the strength of its response spectrum. So you get a "violin" sound. But interestingly, sound tests of recorded violins where the transient and noise sound was filtered out made it hard for people to distinguish between an real oboe and the violin. I am not saying most or even many people could not recognize it as a violin, only that the fundamental quality of the wave shape produced by the string remains strong even after transformed by the violin.

 

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6 hours ago, Carl Stross said:

I would be happy to supply you with a couple of samples of proper violin tone.

I am interested in samples.

(I sometimes wonder what old man Strad would think if he would hear his creations today. The miracle is somehow that a high percentage of his instruments improved to the better during modernization of the setup. )

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1 hour ago, ctanzio said:

For a theoretical TRIANGULAR wave, the amplitude of each harmonic varies as 1/n^2. There are only odd harmonics.

So if we give the fundamental (n=1) a relative amplitude of 1 , then the third harmonic has an amplitude of 1/9, the fifth harmonic has an amplitude 1/25, and so forth.

A theoretical sawtooth wave has all the harmonics and the amplitudes decrease as 1/n. (Thank you Marty for the correction to my previous post.)

Since the shape of the actual wave traveling along the violin string is something akin to an asymmetric triangle, you would need to measure it experimentally. I participated in some studies with a forum member a few years back. He setup a test bed and measured the reaction force over time at one end of a bowed string.

I took the resulting data file performed a fourier analysis of it. Harmonic amplitude was not 1/n, nor  1/n^2, but some monotonically decreasing value. I used the amplitudes from the fourier analysis and mathematically created a tone by adding sine waves together. It sounded oboe-like. This would be the "input" into the bridge and violin.

A violin would not reproduce this oboe sound because of phase shifting, damping and variation in the strength of its response spectrum. So you get a "violin" sound. But interestingly, sound tests of recorded violins where the transient and noise sound was filtered out made it hard for people to distinguish between an real oboe and the violin. I am not saying most or even many people could not recognize it as a violin, only that the fundamental quality of the wave shape produced by the string remains strong even after transformed by the violin.

 

What does "monotonically decreasing" mean?

 

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9 hours ago, Carl Stross said:

No, it does not. It sounds like an erhu.

If a (proper) violin sounds like an erhu then, it simply means it sounds like crap.  A violin must sound like a violin and respond like one. Enthusiasts trying to beat Old Man Strad need familiarize themselves with what exactly that means.

I would be happy to supply you with a couple of samples of proper violin tone.

What Carl! you're not familiar with Mendelssohn's Erhu concerto in E minor, I'm particularly fond of Issac Stern's version, he really get's that skin singing! 

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