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Can you help me to identify this violin and how old is it?


LouisXVI
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3 hours ago, FiddleDoug said:
3 hours ago, FiddleDoug said:

I think that you'll find that virtually all JTL violins are "factory violins", not made by single makers.

"By 1925 the craft was organised into 18 workshops and 4 factories employing nearly 700 workers, most of whom were very skilled craftsmen. 
There were also some women makers, although much fewer in number.  Probably the largest of these so-called factories was Jerome THIBOUVILLE-LAMY, or J.T.L. but they coexisted well with the smaller family ateliers."

 

 

Are you sure about this? The Corilon website says "After all, the J.T.L. workshops were not merely production sites of mass goods, which was the mistaken impression many held of Thibouville-Lamy (much like many similar large European companies in this period). Instead, J.T.L. was a site where the technical knowledge acquired over generations was concentrated — knowledge which outstanding violin makers brought to the company, as well as knowledge which radiated from there by masters who completed major phases of their training at J.T.L."

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25 minutes ago, Brumcello said:

Are you sure about this? The Corilon website says "After all, the J.T.L. workshops were not merely production sites of mass goods, which was the mistaken impression many held of Thibouville-Lamy (much like many similar large European companies in this period). Instead, J.T.L. was a site where the technical knowledge acquired over generations was concentrated — knowledge which outstanding violin makers brought to the company, as well as knowledge which radiated from there by masters who completed major phases of their training at J.T.L."

I guess that would make it a "high quality factory". I don't see anything about individual makers making the tens of thousands of violins produced. The great luthiers ran the workshops that produced the instruments, and probably acted as "quality control. I'll also remind about the steam bent plates in the Midio Fino instruments.

"The list of great luthiers is practically endless – Marius Didier, Charles Fétique and almost countless others. These masters ran ateliers which confirmed that even in light of the exponential growth of an instrument-making town such as Mirecourt, there would always be room for traditionally-oriented businesses run by craftsmen."

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23 minutes ago, FiddleDoug said:

I guess that would make it a "high quality factory". I don't see anything about individual makers making the tens of thousands of violins produced. The great luthiers ran the workshops that produced the instruments, and probably acted as "quality control. I'll also remind about the steam bent plates in the Midio Fino instruments.

"The list of great luthiers is practically endless – Marius Didier, Charles Fétique and almost countless others. These masters ran ateliers which confirmed that even in light of the exponential growth of an instrument-making town such as Mirecourt, there would always be room for traditionally-oriented businesses run by craftsmen."

I'm not suggesting that the great luthers produced "thousands" of instruments. However I don't think you can discount the possibility that these skilled artisans produced some single maker (or largely single maker) instruments themselves. The 1919 JTL catalogue refers to the Lutherie D'art models which retailed at ff 720 compared to the Medio Fino which retailed at ff 34. Obviously better materials justified the price but possibly a more laborious and artistic manufacturing method as well.

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25 minutes ago, LouisXVI said:

But my question is: why there are people who says It is not french? For what reason? The stamp?

The stamp does not look entirely convincing, but that would not be the reason for not  Identifying it as French. 

Can I say that you  have not helped the ID of your violin by blacking out the pegbox. This is a common feature of late 19th century German violins and causes confusion. Why did you do that ?

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Hi Delabo, the last owner did it because He was an okd man with eye issues and that way he was more able to see the strings when changing the strings... but besides that, it doesnt look french? The JTL violins never were stamped?

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1 hour ago, LouisXVI said:

Hi Blank face. Could you please tell me why It doesnt look french to you?

Yes, the inside blackened pegbox wasn't done at French violins (though this could have always been added later, for example with a repair, bushings etc.) But there are other point. The ff aeren't like anything what one can see usually at JTL instruments; the chamfer of the edgework different (what leads to a certain "wipe" of the varnish Martin has mentioned). Most important for me are the rib joints, which are pinched together in the middle. That's visible at one of your first photos, though a lot of black colour was brushed on to disguise it. That's a feature of Saxon/Bohemian building on the back, not like the usual JTL outside mould.

By the photos it's not clearly to see what's going on with the varnish, but the surface looks as if it was overcoated or revarnished very recently.

BTW, believing into advertising texts of old or more recently published online dealer's catalogues won't make anybody wiser.^_^

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 I don't think that the scroll inking is original ... and there's a lot of suspicious stuff, the gunk around the rib/plate joins, the blacked out f-hole inner surfaces, the later bee stings.

For me I just can't see anything in this violin that says JTL. The wide grained corner blocks are also giving me pause ...

 

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2 hours ago, Brumcello said:

Could you explain a bit more about the significance of this?

It seems very poorly done and "after the fact" ...

I'd also expect the f-holes on a good JTL to be more undercut - the edges of these f-holes seem to be at right angles to the plane of the top plate.

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So the conclusion it is french or not french? And why? Because of the stamp? It could be that the stamp has been degraded by a luthier brushing the plate to clean it through years? Becaus the F holes are not as nice as supposed to be?

Why to fake a label of a mass production manufacturer instead of putting "stradivarius" or "Nicolas Lupot"?

 

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1 hour ago, LouisXVI said:

So the conclusion it is french or not french? And why? Because of the stamp? It could be that the stamp has been degraded by a luthier brushing the plate to clean it through years? Becaus the F holes are not as nice as supposed to be?

Why to fake a label of a mass production manufacturer instead of putting "stradivarius" or "Nicolas Lupot"?

 

My opinion, which no where near what a Martin Swan's opinion is, is that this is in fact a "modern" or recently built violin that has a sorta convincing but not really "antique job"  that is intended to make one think they are buying "an old" violin ,why? because it will sell and get a higher price that way vs try to sell it as a "new Chinese instrument"  There are replicas of Invicta  and Seiko watches now, one may wonder why someone would forge a 200$ watch and the answer is because 200$ is more than 25$, and sure we could make forgery Rolex's but everyone's doing that. The same thing in the fragrance world De Marly, Creed are not the only fragrances that are copied, someone may decide to copy Joop for whatever reason, simply that they can sell it for more than it's really worth.

again no expert on these sorts of things, but I have seen a violin or two and there are many "little" things that are saying "fake" about this instrument or certainly the varnish work, and often times when one thing is wrong or out of place the entire thing is.

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Hi, I dont think that is the case, since the previous owner had it at least since 1940's. He as a famous player.

The violin has a really warm, deep and mature tone it sounds really good. Im just trying to figure out if it is what it is supposed to be

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Definitely Czech or antiqued Chinese, depending on the age. JTL would have a paper label, and the corners are the wrong shape, too rounded. The edge joints don't look thick enough and possibly have been blackened to hide the obvious join? The timber and varnish colour don't have the typical JTL look either. The blackening of the pegbox is a bit obvious too.

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17 hours ago, Blank face said:

Most important for me are the rib joints, which are pinched together in the middle. That's visible at one of your first photos, though a lot of black colour was brushed on to disguise it. That's a feature of Saxon/Bohemian building on the back, not like the usual JTL outside mould.

Yes. Not French construction. You can see the seam running right down the center, and the other rib joins also looked pinched.

corner_join.jpg

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1 hour ago, martin swan said:

It's not Chinese or modern.

The treble C-bout edge is genuinely mangled - also I never saw a Chinese violin with such f-holes or arching.

 

Ah, I concur re the edge, didn't notice that. But some higher end Chinese violins are pretty convincing. One of my advanced students brought in a (brand new) "old" instrument to try the other week and I was pretty impressed with the level of detail in the antiquing and the overall style. The sound wasn't great (sorry student :lol:) but purely as a copy it did look convincing.

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Well, I think what I was getting at is that I don't think it's what it is presenting itself as. The "jtl" stamp seems like some attempt at creating an original stamp, as well as whole bunch of other stuff with the "wear" . I would modify my initial response as "Bohemian" trying to pass as jtl, but what do I know, I engage these posts to learn from folks like Martin and Blank face

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24 minutes ago, Aurella said:

But some higher end Chinese violins are pretty convincing. 

I agree, but there are a lot of small damages here that are much more what you see on "improved" older instruments. Very few "dirty antiquers" can actually bring themselves to crack ribs and remove material from the top plate overhang ... :lol:

But the rib corners are conclusive in any case. 

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