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"New" Giuseppe Guarneri discovered via dedrochronology


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3 minutes ago, Bruce Tai said:

Now imagine the reverse:

Deauthenticating Stradivarius and Guarnerius violins, one at a time. 

 

Scientifically plausible. But it will make many enemies and hurt many feelings. So unlikely to happen.  

Yet...it would be a fascinating discovery...

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1 hour ago, Bruce Tai said:

Now imagine the reverse:

Deauthenticating Stradivarius and Guarnerius violins, one at a time. 

 

Scientifically plausible. But it will make many enemies and hurt many feelings. So unlikely to happen.  

Believe me, it happens...

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6 hours ago, Bruce Tai said:

Now imagine the reverse:

Deauthenticating Stradivarius and Guarnerius violins, one at a time. 

 

Scientifically plausible. But it will make many enemies and hurt many feelings. So unlikely to happen.  

I guess the upside of that would be if some Strads are de-authenticated, that just means there's more out there to be found at yard sales, or in attics! 

Or being struck by lightning, or winning the Powerball :lol: all are equally possible, just very unlikely.   

I still buy lottery tickets on a regular basis anyway :)

 

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On 5/28/2021 at 3:12 AM, Jeny Mahon said:

I guess the upside of that would be if some Strads are de-authenticated, that just means there's more out there to be found at yard sales, or in attics! 

 

I found one at an estate sale which proved to be an original Strad, but - it was a case. Still a good find though!

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38 minutes ago, Dimitri Musafia said:

I found one at an estate sale which proved to be an original Strad, but - it was a case. Still a good find though!

Yeah that's still very cool. And to be fair if anyone was destined to find it surely it would be you :D. Fate brought the case master to the masters case.

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11 hours ago, Dimitri Musafia said:

I found one at an estate sale which proved to be an original Strad, but - it was a case. Still a good find though!

:o WOW that is amazing!  I bet in the few seconds it took to open it you almost had a heart attack!  Excellent find :) 

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On 5/28/2021 at 2:53 AM, Bruce Tai said:

Now imagine the reverse:

Deauthenticating Stradivarius and Guarnerius violins, one at a time. 

 

Scientifically plausible. But it will make many enemies and hurt many feelings. So unlikely to happen.  

 

On 5/28/2021 at 4:48 AM, Ratcliffiddles said:

Believe me, it happens...

Peter, I know some experts are capable of deauthenticating some of the Stradivari violins out there. With dendrochronology, it gets even easier. But people don't go public with this kind of information, do they? 

I am not saying that we should publicly de-authenticate Stradivarius violins. That would create too much chaos and hurt feelings. It won't do the world much good. 

Is it possible that 20% of the "certificated" Antonio Stradivari violins are not genuine? I have no idea. In the antique market, we can have situations where 95% or 99% of the stuff is not genuine. The antique Chinese jade and porcelain markets are terrible that way. The antique violin market is running amazingly well in comparison, thanks to many experts who worked hard to keep it orderly.    

 

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On 5/30/2021 at 10:56 PM, Dimitri Musafia said:

Yes it was, good call. If you come to Cremona this fall for the Triennale you'll find it at the Museo del Violino. 

I'll have to try - it's a pretty incredible thing...

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13 hours ago, Bruce Tai said:

 

Peter, I know some experts are capable of deauthenticating some of the Stradivari violins out there. With dendrochronology, it gets even easier. But people don't go public with this kind of information, do they? 

I am not saying that we should publicly de-authenticate Stradivarius violins. That would create too much chaos and hurt feelings. It won't do the world much good. 

Is it possible that 20% of the "certificated" Antonio Stradivari violins are not genuine? I have no idea. In the antique market, we can have situations where 95% or 99% of the stuff is not genuine. The antique Chinese jade and porcelain markets are terrible that way. The antique violin market is running amazingly well in comparison, thanks to many experts who worked hard to keep it orderly.    

 

Bruce,

No, mostly, they do not go "public", and the information is confidential between commissioner and myself, but there are a few ( very few, and nowhere near 20%) of the certificated Strads which are not "quite" by Antonio. Some are likely to be later Strad workshop, some have Voller fronts, some ARE entireley by Voller. With dendro now being "almost" a requirement when selling his instruments, these become difficult to be sold for what they are not.

The beauty about Stradivari and the wood he used, is that many cross-match each other exceedingly well, and are made from wood from the same tree, often during specific periods, although leftover bits occasionally appear in (his) later instruments.  The above is mostly the case for instruments made after about 1690.

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11 hours ago, Ratcliffiddles said:

Bruce,

No, mostly, they do not go "public", and the information is confidential between commissioner and myself, but there are a few ( very few, and nowhere near 20%) of the certificated Strads which are not "quite" by Antonio. Some are likely to be later Strad workshop, some have Voller fronts, some ARE entireley by Voller. With dendro now being "almost" a requirement when selling his instruments, these become difficult to be sold for what they are not.

The beauty about Stradivari and the wood he used, is that many cross-match each other exceedingly well, and are made from wood from the same tree, often during specific periods, although leftover bits occasionally appear in (his) later instruments.  The above is mostly the case for instruments made after about 1690.

Do his leftovers show up on post-1744 Bergonzi tops ever?

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11 hours ago, Ratcliffiddles said:

Bruce,

No, mostly, they do not go "public", and the information is confidential between commissioner and myself, but there are a few ( very few, and nowhere near 20%) of the certificated Strads which are not "quite" by Antonio. Some are likely to be later Strad workshop, some have Voller fronts, some ARE entireley by Voller. With dendro now being "almost" a requirement when selling his instruments, these become difficult to be sold for what they are not.

The beauty about Stradivari and the wood he used, is that many cross-match each other exceedingly well, and are made from wood from the same tree, often during specific periods, although leftover bits occasionally appear in (his) later instruments.  The above is mostly the case for instruments made after about 1690.

I wonder if the supplier delivered perfectly split bolts by the cartload?

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12 minutes ago, sospiri said:

I wonder if the supplier delivered perfectly split bolts by the cartload?

I wouldn't be surprised if he just bought the entire log and had it split. I don't think things are like today where there are warehouses with towers of stacked billets.

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5 minutes ago, avandesande said:

I wouldn't be surprised if he just bought the entire log and had it split. I don't think things are like today where there are warehouses with towers of stacked billets.

Transportation of the time was very limited and logs could be only transported by water, but they had to be pulled somehow to the river first by horses or oxen. For this reason woodcutters didn't cut the biggest trees unless absolutely necessary and split or sawed logs into smaller parts right in the forest whenever possible so they could transport them to the river or by cart.

Whole long logs were used for construction and boatbuilding and were very valuable. I'd guess the wood for violin makers or woodcarvers who didn't need long pieces was selected from offcuts and smaller lengths of logs right in the forest.

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Hmm. I wonder how much money one could make selling Strad bits?

What if I put a Strad scroll on my Waldie? How much would that increase the value?

How about a Strad nut on my Chinese eBay special?

Wait!!! A Strad end-pin on my Gadda!

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1 hour ago, avandesande said:

I wouldn't be surprised if he just bought the entire log and had it split. I don't think things are like today where there are warehouses with towers of stacked billets.

I think they probably did though. It's probably a very old tradition. 

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20 hours ago, Ratcliffiddles said:

Bruce,

No, mostly, they do not go "public", and the information is confidential between commissioner and myself, but there are a few ( very few, and nowhere near 20%) of the certificated Strads which are not "quite" by Antonio. Some are likely to be later Strad workshop, some have Voller fronts, some ARE entireley by Voller. With dendro now being "almost" a requirement when selling his instruments, these become difficult to be sold for what they are not.

The beauty about Stradivari and the wood he used, is that many cross-match each other exceedingly well, and are made from wood from the same tree, often during specific periods, although leftover bits occasionally appear in (his) later instruments.  The above is mostly the case for instruments made after about 1690.

Thanks for the information. So it's the Vollers who were the cunning copyists, not Vuillaume.  

Dendrochronology is amazing. Now we just need to know which forest produced Stradivari's spruce :) 

Hats off to expert like you and others who have worked hard for almost 200 years to uphold the integrity of Cremonese violin market. The Hill family did a tremendous job by initiating serious scholarship in this area. Their selfless passion and enlightened mentality are shining beacons from the dark world of antique trade in the 19th century. Bravo. 

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7 hours ago, Rue said:

Hmm. I wonder how much money one could make selling Strad bits?

What if I put a Strad scroll on my Waldie? How much would that increase the value?

How about a Strad nut on my Cinese eBay special?

Wait!!! A Strad end-pin on my Gadda!

I’m aware of a Joseph Filius scroll that apparently traded hands at $250k not too long ago - seems like a small price to pay to complete a del Gesu.

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7 hours ago, Bruce Tai said:

Thanks for the information. So it's the Vollers who were the cunning copyists, not Vuillaume.  

Dendrochronology is amazing. Now we just need to know which forest produced Stradivari's spruce :) 

Hats off to expert like you and others who have worked hard for almost 200 years to uphold the integrity of Cremonese violin market. The Hill family did a tremendous job by initiating serious scholarship in this area. Their selfless passion and enlightened mentality are shining beacons from the dark world of antique trade in the 19th century. Bravo. 

Agree mostly, apart from the location of the forest. Should that be kept secret or disclosed if such a location is discovered?

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2 hours ago, sospiri said:

Agree mostly, apart from the location of the forest. Should that be kept secret or disclosed if such a location is discovered?

I'm thinking that it doesn't really matter, aside from a seller of wood from the "original forest" being able to charge a premium, to those most  vulnerable to hokey-poky.  Good wood can be had from many different locations.

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