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Mirecourt innner moulds - a myth?


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1 minute ago, Wood Butcher said:

When you bought your current cello, did the type of mould it was constructed with become a factor in your decision to purchase it?

I dont understand your point and I think you have a real attitude problem 

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14 minutes ago, Brumcello said:

I dont understand your point and I think you have a real attitude problem 

I will try to explain.

For many players, they will not know a great deal about instrument construction. I’d imagine most don’t even know a mould is used.
Therefore, the mould construction is really of no consequence to the player, who is only concerned by the way it plays, tone, and to an extent the looks.
So in summary, I don’t think mould type was ever a factor in any musicians decision on which instrument to purchase.

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4 minutes ago, Wood Butcher said:

I will try to explain.

For many players, they will not know a great deal about instrument construction. I’d imagine most don’t even know a mould is used.
Therefore, the mould construction is really of no consequence to the player, who is only concerned by the way it plays, tone, and to an extent the looks.
So in summary, I don’t think mould type was ever a factor in any musicians decision on which instrument to purchase.

Thanks for explaining.  So my issue is that the LH catalogue features an article on how they make violins. It shows an internal mould. It has been suggested that internal moulds were not used and this article was just to "pretend" that Cremonese methods  were used in Mirecourt. If, as you correctly say, most musicians don't care about the construction methods, what is the point of this article,? Apart from a bit of background for those interested.  In which case, there is no point lying and one has to assume that internal moulds were used. 

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1 minute ago, Brumcello said:

Thanks for explaining.  So my issue is that the LH catalogue features an article on how they make violins. It shows an internal mould. It has been suggested that internal moulds were not used and this article was just to "pretend" that Cremonese methods  were used in Mirecourt. If, as you correctly say, most musicians don't care about the construction methods, what is the point of this article,? Apart from a bit of background for those interested.  In which case, there is no point lying and one has to assume that internal moulds were used. 

Until you spend years and years building instruments and looking at them and discover that they didn't use internal molds and that becomes a part of your knowledge base when it comes to trying to figure out where an instrument was made, which has significant bearing on what it is worth.

I have a lovely catalog that shows a picture of a young, dapper John Juzek, in a lab coat of sorts, sitting at a bench working on a violin...but he didn't make the violins with his name in them. It does help to have a story when trying to sell a product, regardless if it is true or not.

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Like any company, marketing is very important, and they are all trying to push a vision. In this case, that it followed traditional Italian methods, but the reality was manufacture on an industrial scale.

I don’t think any marketing or advertising can be taken as fact, just look at today’s adverts for beer, deodorants, red bull...

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So far we have the following 

1. No inner moulds were used on Mirecourt.  That is what I believe and will continue to believe

2. Advertising lies so the images on the brochure must be incorrect

3. I have looked at thousands of instruments and never seen a Mirecourt one made on an inner mould (of course, if point 1 applies this will always be the case).

 

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10 hours ago, Wood Butcher said:

For many players, they will not know a great deal about instrument construction. I’d imagine most don’t even know a mould is used.
Therefore, the mould construction is really of no consequence to the player, who is only concerned by the way it plays, tone, and to an extent the looks.
So in summary, I don’t think mould type was ever a factor in any musicians decision on which instrument to purchase.

I think we would agree that most musicians will generally be looking for the best sounding and most beautiful violin they can get for their budget.

The choice of mould type is purely a manufacturing decision.  For volume production time is crucial and has cost implications which, as I understand it, make use of the outside mould more appropriate. Surely that doesn't stop an individual master maker or small a workshop under supervision from choosing a different approach for a 'special' model and then charging accordingly? 

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The point with working out which rib construction method was used, is that different schools used distinct methods, and it is a reliable help when authenticating old instruments to a particular area. This useful help was when violin making was carried on as a craft, but stops as violin making became more industrialised.

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10 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

The point with working out which rib construction method was used, is that different schools used distinct methods, and it is a reliable help when authenticating old instruments to a particular area. This useful help was when violin making was carried on as a craft, but stops as violin making became more industrialised.

I dont think anyone is questioning that a specific rib construction method (external form) was the most prevalent in Mirecourt, nor that identifying the method helps with establishing the likely origin of an instrument. The question relates to the fact that there were very skilled luthers employed by JTL and even more so at LH, who made much more expensive models which were described as hand made. It is possible, I would have thought, that some of these luthiers, at least on occasion, would have used an inside mould, especially if creating a model that was to be sold as a "copy of an Italian". 

 

This hypothesis is supported by the photographs with inner forms on the walls, the description in the catalogue and the price point of some of the "hand made" models

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4 minutes ago, fiddlecollector said:

These are from the Mirecourt museum with  form clamping blocks and templates.

Classement-dun-fond-datelier-Musée-de-la-lutherie-Mirecourt-2014-cliché-HCH.jpg

Thank you for posting that picture. Do you know the approximate date when this form was made and used?

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27 minutes ago, Brumcello said:

I dont think anyone is questioning that a specific rib construction method (external form) was the most prevalent in Mirecourt, nor that identifying the method helps with establishing the likely origin of an instrument. The question relates to the fact that there were very skilled luthers employed by JTL and even more so at LH, who made much more expensive models which were described as hand made. It is possible, I would have thought, that some of these luthiers, at least on occasion, would have used an inside mould, especially if creating a model that was to be sold as a "copy of an Italian". 

 

This hypothesis is supported by the photographs with inner forms on the walls, the description in the catalogue and the price point of some of the "hand made" models

Whenever anyone speaks of violins that were “hand made”, I have to think of an old Fiat advert “Hand made by robots” from my childhood.

The prevalent rib construction in Mirecourt was the decidedly “hand made” one I described in my thread “French cornerblockology” some years ago, which seems to have fallen into disuse with the industrialisation, particularly in the 20th C. I have not been able to conclusively find a particular date when one method died out and a different one started. One was taught one method as a 13 year old, and worked like that ones life long.

You seem to labour under a nonsensical notion that one rib construction method was superior or more expensive that another

 

 

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30 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

You seem to labour under a nonsensical notion that one rib construction method was superior or more expensive that another

 

Not at all. I think the point has already been made that good and poor instruments can be made by both methods. I am merely questioning the received wisdom that "all instruments from JTL, LH or other factories were built using an outside form". I have yet to see anything that confirms that view categorically and seen quit a lot to suggest that it may be incorrect.

I get the impression that, rather like the flat earth society, the violin trade insiders have a view and dislike any suggestion that the view might be wrong.

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5 minutes ago, Strad O Various Jr. said:

You couldn't tell the difference between a violin made with an internal mold and an external mold if your life depended on it, these experts can, stop making a fool of yourself.

My expertise (or lack thereof) is totally irrelevant to this discussion

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31 minutes ago, Brumcello said:

I am merely questioning the received wisdom that "all instruments from JTL, LH or other factories were built using an outside form".

I wonder where you recieved that "wisdom", since it is not the case

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14 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

I wonder where you recieved that "wisdom", since it is not the case

Several contributions to this discussion are quite clear that Mirecourt instruments were made using external forms. Are you saying that, in your view, internal forms may have been used on occasions?

 

 

 

 

 

 

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36 minutes ago, Brumcello said:

Several contributions to this discussion are quite clear that Mirecourt instruments were made using external forms. Are you saying that, in your view, internal forms may have been used on occasions?

 

 

 

 

 

 

I said nothing of the sort. The Mirecourt makers traditionally built their ribs on the back around the blocks (as I described in the linked thread). At some stage, which I have been unable to determine, the Mirecourt industry makers moved to outside forms

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It's about (early) 20th century factory making. Undoubtly in Mirecourt were used all kinds of constructions at different periods and by different shops (also building on the back with grooves for the ribs), the question is about the variability within the particular production lines and if it's reflected in the catalogues. In this case all ravens (from Laberte for example) are black untill you can prove you found a white.

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11 minutes ago, Blank face said:

It's about (early) 20th century factory making. Undoubtly in Mirecourt were used all kinds of constructions at different periods and by different shops (also building on the back with grooves for the ribs), the question is about the variability within the particular production lines and if it's reflected in the catalogues. In this case all ravens (from Laberte for example) are black untill you can prove you found a white.

But doesn't this become a self fulfilling prophecy? We know all 20th Century Mirecourt instruments were build using an outside form. So, suppose I bring a fiddle to you for appraisal. I looks French but maybe not quite typical. Not quite as symmetrical as you expect. It has a French label but that means nothing, it has black chamfers on the pegbox,  but thats not a reliable sign. So you look inside, appears to be built on an inside mould, so it can't possibly by Mirecourt. 

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32 minutes ago, Brumcello said:

We know all 20th Century Mirecourt instruments were build using an outside form.

Really, was there some papal decree? If you are unwilling to understand the significance of the regional rib building processes, how changes in the trade were gradual, and what one may deduce from it, then you might find it more profitable to spend your time with the Dotzauer Etüden

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11 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

Really, was there some papal decree? 

Sorry, I think you misunderstand me. I should have put "we know that...." in quotation marks. That is the statement that has been made (or parphrased) by others here and is what I am questioning. Not sure I really understand why you need to be so rude, but if that's the way it is I will leave you all in peace.

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