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Del Gesù Template


Flattmountain
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Absolutely, it's useful to have as much info as you can before deciding what to make.
Certain models may be much more challenging for a novice maker. Odd measurements are acceptable in an antique instrument worth tens of millions, but an educated and experienced player will understand this, and be able to work around it, within reason.

When making a new instrument, if one wants to massage the number to suit themselves, I don't see an issue, but then it can't really be a copy any longer, in a true sense.

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image.png.c752c5e2c2a4f96060fd86b8770f5c8d.png

I am assuming that you are getting the Herdim Template?

The spelling seems wrong? on the International website. I found them on other websites with what i assume is the right spelling.

Strad poster seems to be in stock but it appears that it is lacking the rib outline. Maybe someone has this poster and could verify. I do not own the poster.

https://www.thestradshop.com/store/thestrad/kreisler-guarneri-del-gesu-violin-1733-poster/

 

I am sure someone else has already purchased and have the product that and can give more info on the Herdim set if interested.

 

The "deluxe mold set" for 140 dosn't come with the outline for creating a mold it comes with a mold in it. 

The deluxe will not assist you with F-Hole placement you would have to figure that out on your own.

There is a youtube video online where a Kimon makes a violin based of a deluxe mold set i am sure you can find it if interested what is in it. 

He also comes to this forum as well.

 

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I hope you don't mind me joining in this outline/ template discussion

At the moment I am making my 2nd and third violins and because my main interest is in trying to experiment with the 'mechanics', making and tools - in a sort of historicalish fashion - I have unfortunately neglected the design aspects a bit. I am learning, at the moment, that getting the outline curves right would have meant my rib bending would be easier! the curves I sketched out are in places perhaps too tight even though they didn't look so to my untutored eyes. On my first violin I ended up with a violin with long corners as I just cut the curves on my cornerblocks so they looked right to me. Here it is in its big cornered glory just after I first tuned it up, it sounds good, to my ears, despite its eccentric looks

P1070054.JPG

I am working on my own which can be good in that it allows me to experiment but I definitely would benefit from having a friendly "Meister" to steer me away from some of my simple and avoidable errors! 

Anyway I have hopefully learned from these things that a good outline isn't just beautiful it is also practical, so for violin number 4 I will definitely take more time over design and lay a good foundation for my making in a well thought out outline.

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I also posted some drawings of Kreisler here:

https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/344527-my-kreisler-project/&do=findComment&comment=877786

I'm working on Plowden and perhaps some generic del Gesu form that would fit most of his work as Roger Hargrave suggested...

When looking at rim CT's be aware that the outline of top often differs from back and rib CT is taken somewhere in the middle of the distance so it won't fit back outline nor top outline perfectly.

From my Photoshop del Gesu comparisons I see that the backs were always more symmetric and often strikingly close to each other. Plowden and du Diable appear to fit along 80% of outline of back in my files... (all main curves except the tips of points and near end blocks), some others even more. Kreisler is somewhat larger but still the curves are following the same mould except in proximity of upper block.

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5 hours ago, Andrew tkinson said:

I hope you don't mind me joining in this outline/ template discussion

At the moment I am making my 2nd and third violins and because my main interest is in trying to experiment with the 'mechanics', making and tools - in a sort of historicalish fashion - I have unfortunately neglected the design aspects a bit. I am learning, at the moment, that getting the outline curves right would have meant my rib bending would be easier! the curves I sketched out are in places perhaps too tight even though they didn't look so to my untutored eyes. On my first violin I ended up with a violin with long corners as I just cut the curves on my cornerblocks so they looked right to me. Here it is in its big cornered glory just after I first tuned it up, it sounds good, to my ears, despite its eccentric looks

P1070054.JPG

I am working on my own which can be good in that it allows me to experiment but I definitely would benefit from having a friendly "Meister" to steer me away from some of my simple and avoidable errors! 

Anyway I have hopefully learned from these things that a good outline isn't just beautiful it is also practical, so for violin number 4 I will definitely take more time over design and lay a good foundation for my making in a well thought out outline.

This is beautiful!! and the bigger the corner the more room for an impressive bee sting ;) 

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7 hours ago, CaseyLouque said:

image.png.c752c5e2c2a4f96060fd86b8770f5c8d.png

I am assuming that you are getting the Herdim Template?

The spelling seems wrong? on the International website. I found them on other websites with what i assume is the right spelling.

Strad poster seems to be in stock but it appears that it is lacking the rib outline. Maybe someone has this poster and could verify. I do not own the poster.

https://www.thestradshop.com/store/thestrad/kreisler-guarneri-del-gesu-violin-1733-poster/

 

I am sure someone else has already purchased and have the product that and can give more info on the Herdim set if interested.

 

The "deluxe mold set" for 140 dosn't come with the outline for creating a mold it comes with a mold in it. 

The deluxe will not assist you with F-Hole placement you would have to figure that out on your own.

There is a youtube video online where a Kimon makes a violin based of a deluxe mold set i am sure you can find it if interested what is in it. 

He also comes to this forum as well.

 

I did end up purchasing the Herdim set. I will be carving my own mould and using the inside template to do so. the outside outline template is virtually useless to me. As for the Fs, I'll have to see about that further on down the road.

I will also ask if Ray would like me to get a poster as well... so far that has not been mentioned. He does, from what i've seen, have a poster for his bass work.

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1094035433_ScreenShot2020-04-30at7_18_45PM.thumb.png.6c30be3655b3f3e780c9f2cc60a52d9a.png

Here is a mould that's a symmetric average of the Cannone halves if anyone is interested..
Cannone.pdf

It's traced from the purfling line. 

Edit; I should add that this is one of the larger del Gesu's that was possibly built with proud blocks on his standard mould so this outline is specific to the Cannone and not universal. 

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7 hours ago, J.DiLisio said:

Edit; I should add that this is one of the larger del Gesu's that was possibly built with proud blocks on his standard mould so this outline is specific to the Cannone and not universal. 

Doesn't seem to be too far away even with "corrected" symmetry. Here I pasted it over Plowden in real size. Semms surprising how close they really are. When experts talk about differences they are often just in tiny details of flow of surves rather than completely different utlnes, but many folks (including luthiers) think the difference is really huge. Even some Strad and Amati models would fit the same mould with del Gesu with just tiny adjustments near blocks.

The "larger" del Gesus appear to have bolder edges and wider overhang and in some cases thicker ribs, that adds up to a mm or so difference and with some proud blocks the outline chnges flavor considerably. BTW I noticed similar width on the upper curves of upper corners (notice the biggest divergence from Plowden) on some earlier del Gesus. Perhaps that was the other mould he used sometimes. But still manageable with proud blocks.

And thanks for sharing.

PlowdenVSCannone.jpg

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On 4/20/2021 at 7:42 PM, Urban Luthier said:

A few resources from Addie kindly posted by Peter

http://www.thestradsound.com/maestronet/stradivari-forma-by-addie 

 

On 4/20/2021 at 9:16 PM, HoGo said:

I also posted some drawings of Kreisler here:

https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/344527-my-kreisler-project/&do=findComment&comment=877786

I'm working on Plowden and perhaps some generic del Gesu form that would fit most of his work as Roger Hargrave suggested...

When looking at rim CT's be aware that the outline of top often differs from back and rib CT is taken somewhere in the middle of the distance so it won't fit back outline nor top outline perfectly.

From my Photoshop del Gesu comparisons I see that the backs were always more symmetric and often strikingly close to each other. Plowden and du Diable appear to fit along 80% of outline of back in my files... (all main curves except the tips of points and near end blocks), some others even more. Kreisler is somewhat larger but still the curves are following the same mould except in proximity of upper block.

 

22 hours ago, Flattmountain said:

This is beautiful!! and the bigger the corner the more room for an impressive bee sting ;) 

 

21 hours ago, J.DiLisio said:

1094035433_ScreenShot2020-04-30at7_18_45PM.thumb.png.6c30be3655b3f3e780c9f2cc60a52d9a.png

Here is a mould that's a symmetric average of the Cannone halves if anyone is interested..
Cannone.pdf

It's traced from the purfling line. 

Edit; I should add that this is one of the larger del Gesu's that was possibly built with proud blocks on his standard mould so this outline is specific to the Cannone and not universal. 

Hello, thank you for being generous with these great resources. I look forward to learning from and making use of them on my violin number four and others. Being quite a tall person, I like the idea of a large violin such as the Cannone. Perhaps my first, large cornered violin could be named the Cornerone?   

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13 hours ago, Andrew tkinson said:

Hello, thank you for being generous with these great resources. I look forward to learning from and making use of them on my violin number four and others. Being quite a tall person, I like the idea of a large violin such as the Cannone. Perhaps my first, large cornered violin could be named the Cornerone?   

I don't think Cannone is large violin. It has one of the longer stop lengths of del Gesu though. Plowden is barely 189 on bass side but the body dimensions are pretty similar.

There are larger models of violins by Strad or other old makers.

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12 hours ago, HoGo said:

I don't think Cannone is large violin. It has one of the longer stop lengths of del Gesu though. Plowden is barely 189 on bass side but the body dimensions are pretty similar.

There are larger models of violins by Strad or other old makers.

Cannone back length is 354 mm. Not at all large.

Body stop is about 198 mm. So another one for the standardization dumpster :).

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11 hours ago, HoGo said:

I don't think Cannone is large violin. It has one of the longer stop lengths of del Gesu though. Plowden is barely 189 on bass side but the body dimensions are pretty similar.

There are larger models of violins by Strad or other old makers.

 

6 hours ago, Bodacious Cowboy said:

Cannone back length is 194 mm. Not at all large.

Body stop is about 198 mm. So another one for the standardization dumpster :).

Hello, thanks for the comments and further information. I have to admit my enthusiasm surpasses my violin knowledge. Being around 6ft 4" I bump my head on the lid of the "Standardization dumpster" each time I try to climb out, causing me to fall back in so I have ended up making my home there!

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4 hours ago, Flattmountain said:

Sorry, I paid 48... maybe thats something else

yes it came the other day and I am about to cut the mould now:lol:

I don't know what I googled. Did you get a good deal? Do the measurements seem right? I notice you are using the British spelling of mould. 

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35 minutes ago, sospiri said:

I don't know what I googled. Did you get a good deal? Do the measurements seem right? I notice you are using the British spelling of mould. 

It is a template from international violin. As far as the inside template goes, its great and well worth it. The F is a strad for some reason and the scroll is a little strange, but that comes later. I do already have a Guarneri F so thats good.

I guess I do lol. there are a few things that are just better British in my mind (just makes sense... like colour), and auto correct doesn't like it vey much (even though my auto correct will do Russian:unsure:). I am actually from Baton Rouge and live in Tennessee:lol:

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2 hours ago, Flattmountain said:

The F is a strad for some reason and the scroll is a little strange, but that comes later. I do already have a Guarneri F so thats good.

Are you sure it is a Strad F?  The Kreisler F looks somewhat like a Strad F at a casual glance.  Nothing like his later work.  If you want to copy the Kreisler, use what it came with.  Better still, trace from the poster or a correctly sized web image (if you dare). 

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Yes tracing for the Kreisler dG works. A note of caution, @Flattmountain: I ordered a Kreisler template from Int'l, and the scroll was 4mm too long. IIRC, there were other measurements off other parts off also, but usually w/i1 mm; perhaps there was one other off by 2mm.  In any case, my instructor - an esteemed denizen of these very forums! - spotted it from across his desk.  Seriously, he's that good.

I was able to return it to Int'l, and supposedly it was eventually corrected by the manufacturer (don't remember if it was Herdim), but at that point, I gave up: I trace (actually, photocopy with a full size 100% copy machine), then laminate.  With a bunch of Strad posters, I theoretically have access to a range of "templates". Don't ask how many I have done, though. :D 

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10 hours ago, chiaroscuro_violins said:

Are you sure it is a Strad F?  The Kreisler F looks somewhat like a Strad F at a casual glance.  Nothing like his later work.  If you want to copy the Kreisler, use what it came with.  Better still, trace from the poster or a correctly sized web image (if you dare). 

Agreed

 

12 hours ago, Flattmountain said:

It is a template from international violin. As far as the inside template goes, its great and well worth it. The F is a strad for some reason and the scroll is a little strange, but that comes later. I do already have a Guarneri F so thats good.

I guess I do lol. there are a few things that are just better British in my mind (just makes sense... like colour), and auto correct doesn't like it vey much (even though my auto correct will do Russian:unsure:). I am actually from Baton Rouge and live in Tennessee:lol:

Do you play mountain music? 

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11 hours ago, chiaroscuro_violins said:

Are you sure it is a Strad F?  The Kreisler F looks somewhat like a Strad F at a casual glance.  Nothing like his later work.  If you want to copy the Kreisler, use what it came with.  Better still, trace from the poster or a correctly sized web image (if you dare). 

Why "if you dare"? Is there some kind of peril involved?

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