Praelludium and Allegro - Kreisler


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Do I dare ask?

Can anyone dm me fingerings for Kreisler's Praelludium and Allegro?  Is it possible to learn this piece in a month or so? (I know that is a terrible question due to lack of information on my current playing abilities lol)

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1 hour ago, violinnewb said:

 Is it possible to learn this piece in a month or so? (I know that is a terrible question due to lack of information on my current playing abilities lol)

if you can play the first page at the least half way presentable I'd think yes, you could learn the entire piece in a month.  5-6 hrs per day would be needed on this piece alone, nothing else.

Realistically speaking - a full year to a year and a half of daily playing/repetition of this tune could get you there,imo.

Mr. Appleman here sometimes at Maestronet plays an honest rendition of it.  I did not dare ask how much time was needed to learn though. 

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15 hours ago, J-G said:

Why not help us out and tell us how good a player you are? 

How do I do that?  By listing some pieces that I have learned and can play well?  

If that is the case, I can play the first unaccompanied Bach Sonata decently well.  But I was spoon fed that piece as a teenager.  I am no longer a teenager.  I took considerable time off from playing.  

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  I'll assume you have the three pages that has {In the Style of Pugnani} printed underneath the title of the piece.

  Here's something you can work out.  I think it's important to get this right to keep the flow of the tune going.  On pg. 2, line 2, 3rd measure - the last set of 16th's that are tied try your best to blend them smoothly and on time so that the following staccato open d note is on time - I've noticed others simply going through the motions of whatever Pugnani  with those four notes just to get to the next measure open D on time.  The third line of the 2nd pg. has a couple more alike examples to work out using different notes - same principal, get to the next measure on time.

  2nd pg., lines 5 and 6 - just keep sawing away to work those into your memory bank.

  2nd pg., lines 7 thru 10 - if i'm remembering right you'll be up high on the g, d and maybe some a string work too.  The key for me opinion wise is when you find what is going to work position and string usage wise is to simply remember what you did, don't change and stay with it. 

  Same goes for 3rd pg., lines 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8.  Simply figure the pattern and remember/memorize.  Here's an example - line 4, 2nd measure, 3rd beat -  stop g on the a string, stop b on the d string, next would be the same g and then the open string e.

  Again, it's just a memory game using three strings at a time with-in one measure of music. 

  You don't necessarily need a responsive violin but I do recommend a light weight bow that has good hair for holding rosin to keep you on the strings for slower practicing and reducing the chance of the bow speeding you up because it won't stay on the strings at a slower pace, I hope that's understandable.

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Thanks for that information, violinnewb.  Yes, the pieces you have learned (and performed) in the past tells us a lot.  Also of course the level of the studies you play every day.  It comes down to a question of whether you're learning to play a piece, or an instrument.   As a rule of thumb, I've always thought that a piece you can't fight your way through sight-reading is a piece that you're not ready to learn.  The fact that you're asking about fingerings sounds an alarm— if you're not yet comfortable with the routines of shifting, arpeggios, double-stops, etc., then this may not be the next piece for you to try to master.  I hasten to add I don't (and couldn't possibly) play the piece.  But it's a great one, so good luck with it!

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55 minutes ago, J-G said:

Thanks for that information, violinnewb.  Yes, the pieces you have learned (and performed) in the past tells us a lot.  Also of course the level of the studies you play every day.  It comes down to a question of whether you're learning to play a piece, or an instrument.   As a rule of thumb, I've always thought that a piece you can't fight your way through sight-reading is a piece that you're not ready to learn.  The fact that you're asking about fingerings sounds an alarm— if you're not yet comfortable with the routines of shifting, arpeggios, double-stops, etc., then this may not be the next piece for you to try to master.  I hasten to add I don't (and couldn't possibly) play the piece.  But it's a great one, so good luck with it!

lol.  well thanks for your input.  I'm still in need of some fingerings but I guess some response is better than no response.

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On 4/19/2021 at 5:04 PM, violinnewb said:

Do I dare ask?

Can anyone dm me fingerings for Kreisler's Praelludium and Allegro?  Is it possible to learn this piece in a month or so? (I know that is a terrible question due to lack of information on my current playing abilities lol)

Well, how much time are you planing to spend on it ? There is nothing really difficult there but if you want it clean it'll waste time.  

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............speaking of those 4's on the second pg. -  I had a second look and I'm thinking just for easier learning try this.  There are four 4's [pinky}.  Starting under/with the farthest right 4 play the four notes only.  Start with the e on the d string and omit that last c for now.  E and B on the d string and g and e on the g string. 

That will be my suggested pattern for working back left for the notes under the other three 4's. 

I'm assumming again that you do have the three pg. Pugnani style of version.  I hope so or I'll I'm getting here is a bunch of typing practice.

The double stops on the same page before the series of 4's is doable - again it's a memory thing, just keep playing them and soon enough they'll be instilled - eventually.  

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Been resisting posting for many reasons. Lunch is longer today but misplaced the glasses somewhere.

I am not a great teacher ( or player ) but spend a large amount of time analyzing many factors and try to back it up with action. I feel for most students, preparing under stress does not work so well. There are those who can manage, but most develop bad habits if they short cut and fake it too much.

Some factors to consider are the player's strength, size, endurance and flexibility. The other is scholarship. Eric Wen owns most of that West of the Atlantic. It is not practical to offer specific advice ( or even general ) as there are so many unknowns with every student. Some judges dislike alternate fingerings, too. 

Assuming Pugnani was an early soloist of Italian descent, there needs to be variation in artistry and tonal range, style and musicality. But I hear generic versions every year. Get a dozen of these kids together and they'd make a pretty solid 2nd violin section.

The power comes in the form of tonal color and the virtual triple stops that finish with actual triple stops. The artistry comes from the high parts and stepped shifting.   

Divide the piece into part one ( page 1 ) and part two ( page 2-3 ) with the final triple stop section being the ending. This section must be practiced the most. It appears obvious, but it is more to free the right arm than the intonation of the left hand. If each triple stop can not be played somewhat easily, the piece most likely can not be prepared with the month. There must also be a workable spiccato, though I have heard a version that was mostly tenuto'd throughout. 

I am not suggesting finger tips, as that is not the preferred way to manipulate the strings but arched fingers are necessary to be square across all strings. Slowly match the bowing of the string- crossings across the strings with the fingers in the left hand. Work at increasing the speed across the strings daily while keeping the left arm relaxed.

On the first page, the student should utilize the 3rd position on the g- string to get as much depth as possible, if they can go higher comfortably, then on the repeat of the opening a darker tonal colour can be used. Open e- strings can be utilized on the down shifts. Raised 4th fingers that are out of tune can draw attention, so adjust the shifts to suit the hand. Not too much time should spent on the first page, but because it is the frame work for the piece, the intonation ( shifts )  must be rock solid. The passages are mostly slow. Be decisive with strong full bow. The tonal shading must be toward strength for a younger student. 

On the second page, the theme is repeated, so that saves time. The work on the first page will help in developing the left hand notes but the bow work is completely different. One might start with a hard martele around mezzoforte, played slowly and then slowly increase the speed reducing the dynamic when possible, The area of the bow is very important in achieving the characteristic and starting near the balance point is suggested.

Through the virtual triple stop section the positions might be anchored with the first finger. The first finger is usually the lowest pitch and will hold the position even when not played. It is best to play one note at a time across the string, being aware of the finger arching as each should be cable of reaching across any of the strings. As the lower two strings are tuned the notes should be bowed as they were double- stops. This creates a more secure feel at the left hand fingers. At the 2nd lesson, have the student work on using the other fingers as anchors. Ideally, the teacher and student should be able to hear stabilize the anchored note.

Second and forth position are are essential, but the third and fifth must be established, so they should be given priority when practiced. I teach pieces out of sequence. We spend the longest number of days on the difficult passages, but not the most time. For most students, the most difficult passages must be attempted for 3 to 5 minutes for every hour if they practice more than one hour. 

If the ascending section ( in major ) on page 2 is practiced slowly, locking in on every shift, the fingerings on the 3rd page tend to work themselves out. Also Mr Wen's editions, I believe, have the suggested fingerings. Many of my students visualize virtual frets on the upper part of the fingerboard and that helps in tuning the arpeggiated or broken chords on page 3. Playing the piano accompaniment during the passages help. Remind the student to stay relaxed and to practice slowly. The speed develops over time and it truly is not a very fast work.

Practice the ascending section in reverse, 8- notes at a time. Also practice the descending section in reverse. 

If the student is managed carefully and progress reminders ( e-mails ) sent out every other day, you should be done in one month with a gifted player. The parents also have to be supportive and this should not be attempted during any large exam months. Advanced Placement starts soon and I can not assign any large projects during this time. Early audition season is upon us and that usually starts around Valentine's Day ( VD ) mid-February. Good Luck. 

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Try not to think of it as difficult. Even though it might be. The work can be tedious but there are rewards.

Composers are motivated to write for many reasons but Kreisler did write loveable melodies. In the difficult middle section, focus on the melody and be patient in the transitioning 8 measure to the ending.

The 3rd page is split into three areas. The upper, mostly are arpeggios ( in upper positions ) is not too difficult if one brings the left elbow towards the inside but the bowing sucks. 

The middle is relatively easy if you eliminate the droning e- string but the bowing sucks.

The bottom part is exhausting if the player worked too hard to play the passages on the previous 2 1/2 pages. Relax, work towards firmer pressure on each finger during the triple stops. As one get more comfortable, the bias will be towards the anchoring fingers. Keep flexible, but the bowing sucks.

It's patience that makes the piece easier. There are no easy tricks to playing great works, but with Kreisler, there are clever moments that he put embedded into the parts for himself.

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When you finally turn into an old man and start getting symptoms of fiddle playing burnout find something like I have done repertoire wise for making little more than mere noise while at the same time making you feel that you still got it technique wise - Pagannini 13 {8} and the few rondo examples from De Beriot - that all I need these days.

I have given up the notion of learning the Mendelssohn in this lifetime.

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