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Another Violin Identification :-)


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If you are using my old “quiz for Addie” (RIP) instructions, you should take it a bit more literally. Scroll fluting going “to the bitter end” means exactly that, and not 8 o’clockish. The rib joint ends seem to me to have the joints more or less centrally, and at the end block, you have the typical Saxon notch in the back, marking the centre line. Altogether hardly controversial to call the fiddle Saxon

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45 minutes ago, Delabo said:

Looks like it once had an unusual saddle ?

Or is there a better explanation ?

 

 

saddle.jpg

It was common at one time to have an Ebony piece fitted to the rib. The tailgut rode over this, and the original low saddle.
Here, the Ebony is replaced, and a newer saddle.

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2 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

If you are using my old “quiz for Addie” (RIP) instructions, you should take it a bit more literally. Scroll fluting going “to the bitter end” means exactly that, and not 8 o’clockish. The rib joint ends seem to me to have the joints more or less centrally, and at the end block, you have the typical Saxon notch in the back, marking the centre line. Altogether hardly controversial to call the fiddle Saxon

The bottom rib looks like it may have been one-piece originally, and the saddle once was set into the rib. The rib joins are ambiguous, but on-the-whole look mitered to me. From the description of the OP, the corner blocks are consistant with inserted linings, and the linings look like they taper-in before meeting the blocks. The purfling is very close to the edge. There also appear to be tooth-plane marks in the back interior.

On the other hand, it is hard for me to tell from the picture if there is a delta at the base of the scroll, and I can't see how deep the fluting goes from the pictures. There is what appears to be a  notch on the bottom plate, typical of Markneukirchen violins.

I am leaning toward mid-19c. Mittenwald.

 

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11 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

Well, you're wrong then

Why? If you look closely at the linings, they taper before meeting the corner blocks suggesting strongly that they are inserted into the blocks. We can't know for sure without taking off the top, but if the linings are inserted and the bottom rib started life as one piece, it isn't likely a Saxon box. Plus, that purfling...

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1 hour ago, GeorgeH said:

The bottom rib looks like it may have been one-piece originally, and the saddle once was set into the rib. The rib joins are ambiguous, but on-the-whole look mitered to me. From the description of the OP, the corner blocks are consistant with inserted linings, and the linings look like they taper-in before meeting the blocks. The purfling is very close to the edge. There also appear to be tooth-plane marks in the back interior.

On the other hand, it is hard for me to tell from the picture if there is a delta at the base of the scroll, and I can't see how deep the fluting goes from the pictures. There is what appears to be a  notch on the bottom plate, typical of Markneukirchen violins.

I am leaning toward mid-19c. Mittenwald.

 

There's a very pronounced delta at the bottom of the scroll, are you not looking at the pictures, and the ribs are flush with the corners, the joins of the ribs are right down the middle, where in God's name do you get Mittenwald from?

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The close ups indicate that the violin‘s surface was heavily sanded, what might explain that some features are blurred, for example some of the rib joints. But it‘s obvious now, that it is from the Saxon/Bohemian type. It’s also possible that the purfling was replaced or added at some point in the past, maybe it had no purfling at all in the beginning.

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It's violin with mixed signals. If the linings are let-in, that is pretty much definitive that it is not Saxon. We can't tell for certain, but the tapered linings going into the blocks are an indication to me that they are let-in, plus the OPs description that the blocks are asymmetric. Also, the purfling is very close to edge, and the bottom rib appears to have been originally one piece, two more indications of a Mittenwald box.

So one can choose to think that the "notch" (which could have easily been added when the ribs and saddle were modified) and the grafted scroll (which may not even be original) are stronger signals of the origin than the features OP and I have pointed out. Nothing wrong with difference of opinions. Everybody gets to hang their hat where they choose. :)

 

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29 minutes ago, AlexanderWinkler said:

It's defenently a tricky one,

he question is not what the f holes look like, or anything like that, but how it was made. The Op violin can be unambiguously categorised as from the Saxon/North Bohemian area. Not “tricky” at all, unless you are playing daft

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11 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

Not “tricky” at all, unless you are playing daft

Apologies if i have offended you in any way, i did not intend to, but it does seem that there are different opinions on this violin, i know that you are of the opinion that it is saxon, which is fair, but there has also been talk of let in linings and mittenwald charactaristics or talk of some of the parts of the violin being altered. 

Thank you very much everyone for the great help with the identification of this violin.

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22 minutes ago, AlexanderWinkler said:

Apologies if i have offended you in any way, i did not intend to, but it does seem that there are different opinions on this violin

As Jacob says, violins are not identified by a democratic voting process. Certainly not when it comes to valuation or a responsible sale process. 

I follow a few "identification" groups on Facebook and am alternately amused and horrified by the dogmatic opinions voiced and taken seriously by people who clearly know nothing. But that's Facebook, and in a sense that's our modern world where everyone can find validation for their opinion, however cauliflower-brained.

The standards of a serious violin dealership are different - the identity of a violin doesn't depend on a straw poll, but on what can be demonstrated and backed up by reference examples.

I'm afraid I don't see any significant similarities between the 2 violins on your overlay - indeed the models look very different to me, in terms of length of bouts and c-bout shape. 

The only thing I would add in terms of ID is that the rib joins are BOB, pinched together, filed off, joining largely in the middle. This feature alone definitively excludes South Germany/Prague etc, and your Danish experts are not so expert if they failed to notice that.

I don't believe you will get a name for this violin, but if you do, it will be from someone who specializes in Saxon violins of the period, and can show you an identical one with an original label. You might want to check with Wolfram Ries in Halle since it doesn't seem to ring any bells for Jacob or Blank Face.

 

 

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2 hours ago, martin swan said:

As Jacob says, violins are not identified by a democratic voting process.

Having looked at some additional pictures from the OP in PMs, I agree with the consensus that the rib joins appear pinched, and the violin is likely of Saxon origin.

I don't think that anybody here proposed that violin identification is a democratic voting process.

Obviously we all find it interesting to read about and discuss violins that are posted on MN, and opinions will differ, even expert opinions. Civil discussions sharing ideas and observations are how we all learn. At least that is how I learn, anyway.

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3 minutes ago, GeorgeH said:

Having looked at some additional pictures from the OP in PMs, I agree with the consensus that the rib joins appear pinched, and the violin is likely of Saxon origin.

I don't think that anybody here proposed that violin identification is a democratic voting process.

Obviously we all find it interesting to read about and discuss violins that are posted on MN, and opinions will differ, even expert opinions. Civil discussions sharing ideas and observations are how we all learn. At least that is how I learn, anyway.

Sorry George, I didn't mean this in any sort of personal way - I just felt the OP was fishing for opinions in a rather indiscriminate way, instead of looking carefully at the relevant details ...

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12 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

you did

Ah, I see. That is a misunderstanding.

The expression "Hang one's hat" has nothing to do with democratic processes or voting.

"Hang one's hat" is an American English idiom that infers "To settle or take up residence somewhere." In this case, I was using the expression to say that people are free to choose whatever individual opinion they settle on. 

I hope that clears that up.

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