Deo Lawson Posted March 26, 2021 Report Posted March 26, 2021 So, I'm varnishing my first instrument! A 16 inch viola. I've settled on the beginner-friendly 1704 varnish (specifically the variation offered by Lemuel Violins in Canada, which includes lavender spike oil and gums of mastic and sandarac). This varnish is a little light on colour, so I want to add some earthy reds to it. I have two sources of dye on hand: ground pernambuco and red shellac. I already have the pernambuco sitting in some alcohol to extract the dye, but the shellac seems trickier. I know it's traditionally used as a fabric dye, but I can't find any information on how the dye was actually extracted. One article seemed to hint that it should be ground into a fine powder, placed in water, boiled, and strained. Would this not make a sticky white mess? Has anyone ever used shellac dye for an instrument (or clothes, too)?
joerobson Posted March 26, 2021 Report Posted March 26, 2021 11 minutes ago, Deo Lawson said: So, I'm varnishing my first instrument! A 16 inch viola. I've settled on the beginner-friendly 1704 varnish (specifically the variation offered by Lemuel Violins in Canada, which includes lavender spike oil and gums of mastic and sandarac). This varnish is a little light on colour, so I want to add some earthy reds to it. I have two sources of dye on hand: ground pernambuco and red shellac. I already have the pernambuco sitting in some alcohol to extract the dye, but the shellac seems trickier. I know it's traditionally used as a fabric dye, but I can't find any information on how the dye was actually extracted. One article seemed to hint that it should be ground into a fine powder, placed in water, boiled, and strained. Would this not make a sticky white mess? Has anyone ever used shellac dye for an instrument (or clothes, too)? It would be easier (and effective) to solve the shellac in ethanol , filter it, and apply as a coat. on we go, Joe
Davide Sora Posted March 26, 2021 Report Posted March 26, 2021 https://shop.kremerpigments.com/us/shop/dyes-vegetable-color-paints/36020-lac-dye.html https://shop.kremerpigments.com/elements/resources/products/files/36020e.pdf
Deo Lawson Posted March 26, 2021 Author Report Posted March 26, 2021 It would be easier (and effective) to solve the shellac in ethanol , filter it, and apply as a coat. Yes, that's an option I considered. However, I don't like the idea because the shellac will be soluble in my varnish and vice versa, and in my experience with shellac it's very easy to make a mess of it. I'm also not a fan of shellac's tendency to get cloudy, hence why I'd like to extract the color alone.
Michael_Molnar Posted March 26, 2021 Report Posted March 26, 2021 I thought that shellac is cloudy when there is water in it. Shellac needs high quality alcohol. There are lots of old threads on this topic.
Davide Sora Posted March 27, 2021 Report Posted March 27, 2021 5 hours ago, Deo Lawson said: I already have the pernambuco sitting in some alcohol to extract the dye, but the shellac seems trickier. I know it's traditionally used as a fabric dye, but I can't find any information on how the dye was actually extracted. One article seemed to hint that it should be ground into a fine powder, placed in water, boiled, and strained. Would this not make a sticky white mess? Has anyone ever used shellac dye for an instrument (or clothes, too)? I have never tried to make pigments from shellac, but in ancient times it was a very prized red. This is a recipe from Jo Kirby's Natural Colorants book, highly recommended if you intend to take the road of making your own pigments. The problem is pigments perform better in oil varnish, using them in alcohol varnish is quite tricky, but it can be done (I do). PS if you try to make this pigment let us know how it works.
Deo Lawson Posted March 27, 2021 Author Report Posted March 27, 2021 3 minutes ago, Davide Sora said: I have never tried to make pigments from shellac, but in ancient times it was a very prized red. This is a recipe from Jo Kirby's Natural Colorants book, highly recommended if you intend to take the road of making your own pigments. The problem is pigments perform better in oil varnish, using them in alcohol varnish is quite tricky, but it can be done (I do). PS if you try to make this pigment let us know how it works. Great, this is just what I'm looking for! Sounds like an interesting project, and not very complicated. I guess I ought to start collecting as much urine "as I'd like".
fiddlecollector Posted March 27, 2021 Report Posted March 27, 2021 Dye from pernambuco is usually extracted with water not alcohol.
Kevin Kelly Posted March 27, 2021 Report Posted March 27, 2021 17 hours ago, Deo Lawson said: It would be easier (and effective) to solve the shellac in ethanol , filter it, and apply as a coat. Yes, that's an option I considered. However, I don't like the idea because the shellac will be soluble in my varnish and vice versa, and in my experience with shellac it's very easy to make a mess of it. I'm also not a fan of shellac's tendency to get cloudy, hence why I'd like to extract the color alone. I'm confused. As far as I know, 1704 is mostly shellac to begin with, isn't it?
Deo Lawson Posted March 27, 2021 Author Report Posted March 27, 2021 Yeah, that's technically true. It's mostly seedlac, which is a precursor to shellac. It also contains additives of course. It seems to dissolve less readily than clean shellac and polishes out nicer too in my opinion. My worry is if I use my red shellac as a colour coat it could smear when I add the varnish overtop.
joerobson Posted March 27, 2021 Report Posted March 27, 2021 2 hours ago, Kevin Kelly said: I'm confused. As far as I know, 1704 is mostly shellac to begin with, isn't it? It is. Also if shellac is dissolved in ethanol it remains clear. The cloudiness generally comes from water in the solvent.
Davide Sora Posted March 27, 2021 Report Posted March 27, 2021 I think one of the main factors affecting shellac cloudiness is the presence of wax. In the seedlac (raw shellac) the quantity is variable but in general there is a lot of wax. I filter it out almost completely to make my own varnish (which is not the 1704, however, where the wax is part of the recipe) and I generally lose up to 40% of the weight of the initial seedlac (wax and the other residues included).
David Burgess Posted March 27, 2021 Report Posted March 27, 2021 3 hours ago, joerobson said: Also if shellac is dissolved in ethanol it remains clear. No, it does not, for reasons Sora has already explained. I will add that the wax has a different refractive index than the alcohol-soluble resin component, and that the wax doesn't really dissolve in ethanol. Instead, ethanol can separate the components into an alcohol-soluble resin, and a wax emulsion.
nathan slobodkin Posted March 27, 2021 Report Posted March 27, 2021 Important to differentiate between Lac in it's various crude forms and Shellac which has often been dewaxed already. To separate out the wax the crude lac should be dissolved cold until you have a clear tincture above and the wax and other crud in a less transparent layer below. The clear shellac can the be decanted and filtered. There are various ways to extract color from Lac resins but for the most part just using ruby shellac will yield a fairly mild color which i have always had to augment with some other coloring agent.
John Harte Posted March 28, 2021 Report Posted March 28, 2021 On 3/27/2021 at 1:02 PM, Davide Sora said: I have never tried to make pigments from shellac, but in ancient times it was a very prized red. This is a recipe from Jo Kirby's Natural Colorants book, highly recommended if you intend to take the road of making your own pigments. The problem is pigments perform better in oil varnish, using them in alcohol varnish is quite tricky, but it can be done (I do). PS if you try to make this pigment let us know how it works. Below is a pigment made from sticklac using a very similar process, minus the urine, to that described above. The lye was made using wood ash. The colour in the photo is not quite accurate but good enough for this post as the colour varies slightly anyway under different light sources. This particular pigment in oil varnish produces a vibrant/strong red which fades somewhat when exposed to UV.
MikeC Posted March 29, 2021 Report Posted March 29, 2021 3 hours ago, John Harte said: Below is a pigment made from sticklac using a very similar process, minus the urine, to that described above. The lye was made using wood ash. The colour in the photo is not quite accurate but good enough for this post as the colour varies slightly anyway under different light sources. This particular pigment in oil varnish produces a vibrant/strong red which fades somewhat when exposed to UV. Do you think that could have been used as a colorant in Cremonese varnish?
John Harte Posted March 29, 2021 Report Posted March 29, 2021 3 hours ago, MikeC said: Do you think that could have been used as a colorant in Cremonese varnish? I have no idea. It was certainly around during that period and can look good in an oil varnish. Having said this, I don't recall it being mentioned in any of the various analyses of Cremonese varnish.
MikeC Posted March 29, 2021 Report Posted March 29, 2021 9 hours ago, John Harte said: I have no idea. It was certainly around during that period and can look good in an oil varnish. Having said this, I don't recall it being mentioned in any of the various analyses of Cremonese varnish. well it's a nice looking color kind of a brick red.
joerobson Posted March 29, 2021 Report Posted March 29, 2021 On 3/27/2021 at 2:55 PM, David Burgess said: No, it does not, for reasons Sora has already explained. I will add that the wax has a different refractive index than the alcohol-soluble resin component, and that the wax doesn't really dissolve in ethanol. Instead, ethanol can separate the components into an alcohol-soluble resin, and a wax emulsion. David, I understand what you are saying. I was thinking more of the finished film. Do you see any difference in the clarit of the film between full wax and dewaxed shellac? on we go, Joe
Davide Sora Posted March 29, 2021 Report Posted March 29, 2021 It seems to me that without the wax shellac is more transparent, with the presence of wax it is still "transparent", but not crystal clear.
Oded Kishony Posted March 29, 2021 Report Posted March 29, 2021 I would not bother with the sticlac color but make the varnish with the pernambuco (and madder and other color sources like rosewood and perhaps walnut hulls) and lay down many layers of ‘water thin’ varnish. Place the dry ingredients in a silk screen bag or a womans’ Stocking foot. Use it like a teabag in the alcohol. The wax in the shellac can be helpful in improving the brush ability of the varnish but removing some of it will help clarity. I varnished half a dozen instruments this way in 1987 and the ones I’ve seen, have stood up very well. this type of varnish is pretty soft and takes a while to fully harden. It will take a while for the instrument to sound good, the soft varnish can mute the sound for a while.
avandesande Posted March 29, 2021 Report Posted March 29, 2021 Seems like you have taken quite a detour here for your first instrument. Maybe just use something off the shelf?
Deo Lawson Posted March 29, 2021 Author Report Posted March 29, 2021 (edited) 45 minutes ago, avandesande said: Seems like you have taken quite a detour here for your first instrument. Maybe just use something off the shelf? Actually I've gone ahead and solved my colour problem another way: local earth pigments! Never been one to take the beaten path, I suppose. Also, my viola making budget has completely run out so I have no choice really. I got some brilliant orange clay from a badlands near my house, and mixed it into some shellac along with the iron oxide from a rusty old scraper. I figured I'll just put in the extra work of careful sanding if it forms streak lines (which it did). Altogether, it's no Stradivarius red, but I think the resulting colour is very beautiful. Fingers crossed the iron doesn't turn black over time. Work in progress picture (excuse the mess): https://imgur.com/qdlIOFF Edited March 29, 2021 by Deo Lawson Embed didn't seem to work.
David Burgess Posted March 29, 2021 Report Posted March 29, 2021 4 hours ago, joerobson said: David, I understand what you are saying. I was thinking more of the finished film. Do you see any difference in the clarit of the film between full wax and dewaxed shellac? Yes, a lot. 22 hours ago, John Harte said: Below is a pigment made from sticklac using a very similar process, minus the urine, to that described above. The lye was made using wood ash. The colour in the photo is not quite accurate but good enough for this post as the colour varies slightly anyway under different light sources. This particular pigment in oil varnish produces a vibrant/strong red which fades somewhat when exposed to UV. A major issue with relying on stick-lac for coloring, is that the coloring can go all over the place, depending on the PH of the environment. An example is that Ammonia will turn it into a dark purple-colored substance. Once the fiddle goes out the door, we don't really have much control over things like that, unless we we have anticipated and planned for such things.
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