Stop length problem

[Goran74]

Hello! 

I was copying an old east European violin that has some  geometrical issues.  Corners have a small distance between them (the corners of lower section are high to the specific model). 

Is the solution to put stop length at 192 and enlarge a bit the neck (133)? The original violin has also 192 stop length. 

I would appreciate your opinion. 

{I have in my mind some problems that produces to bowing this geometrical disadvantage, but, I like this model - let s say I go by emotions-and I want to finish it.} 

Thank you all. 

 

[duane88]

fill in the set of notches at 202, put new ones higher up, make a neck of 130 and call it a Guad copy!

It's OK. many have done this sort of thing. Put the bridge where it belongs, make a neck of 130, and don't compound the problem by making a neck that is too long.

[Goran74]

27 minutes ago, duane88 said:

fill in the set of notches at 202

Thank you for your response. 

I did not open any notch yet. 

Excuse me for the description but I give some more details. 

Orange line is the one that connects the two lower corners. This line is at 202mm.

Green line is the 195mm.

The corner tip and stop's distance is bit small (~7mm).

 

[sospiri]

54 minutes ago, duane88 said:

don't compound the problem by making a neck that is too long.

How long is too long and why?

[duane88]

Yes, you st the f-holes too low. 

Options: 1-make a new top. 2-Go forward with this top. 

If 1, then you can solve this probelm. If 2, making a longer neck to compensate for a shorter mensur is creating a different set of issues.

 

I say go on with this top, make a neck of 130, and add this to the list of things to not do on the next instrument.

[Wood Butcher]

26 minutes ago, duane88 said:

Yes, you st the f-holes too low. 

Options: 1-make a new top. 2-Go forward with this top. 

If 1, then you can solve this probelm. 

I’d agree that the soundholes are low, but there are other issues here which making a new top cannot ever address.

The proportions of the model are quite bizarre, with seemingly small C bouts, very wide corners, and the lower corners (which seem too long anyway) very close to the stop length at 195.

Basically it’s going to lead to the corners being in the way of bowing, no matter what fudges are attempted.

[duane88]

I agree, but how many Itallian fiddles made by non-professional makers have these issues! If it's from Italy, it's expensive and quaint, if it's something else, it's a liability.

My point is finish this one and make a list of what to not do on the next one and move on, but making a longer neck to compensate for a shorter mensur makes the instrument a mess of messes that is difficult to play in tune and the player can't quite figure out why.

[sospiri]

9 minutes ago, duane88 said:

I agree, but how many Itallian fiddles made by non-professional makers have these issues! If it's from Italy, it's expensive and quaint, if it's something else, it's a liability.

My point is finish this one and make a list of what to not do on the next one and move on, but making a longer neck to compensate for a shorter mensur makes the instrument a mess of messes that is difficult to play in tune and the player can't quite figure out why.

Difficult to play in tune? Why? Because of this imaginary intonation problem?

If you believe that as many do  then why not make the heel deeper?

[sospiri]

1 hour ago, Goran74 said:

 

The corner tip and stop's distance is bit small (~7mm).

 

That's the real problem isn't it?

[Bodacious Cowboy]

I agree with the Butcher that the lowness of the ff's is not really the sole issue. Several very well regarded violas (for example) have similarly low f holes, and no-one gets their panties in a bunch about that, because the rest of the design works around that.

Copying an "old eastern European violin" wouldn't seem to be the ideal recipe for a stress free life if standardization is a priority...

[duane88]

1 hour ago, sospiri said:

Difficult to play in tune? Why? Because of this imaginary intonation problem?

If you believe that as many do  then why not make the heel deeper?

Because then you have a neck that is too long, a heel that is too small and the only real repair, if you visit your local violin maker/shop is to graft a neck to get the neck and heel correct, and that's expensive. 

We have numbers that have been arrived at over time and experience. I'd just move the board down to 130 if it were 133. I'd call it Defensive Luthiere. If it goes through a decent shop, I can't imagine them taking on a consignment with a 133 neck. You'd want to fix that, because if it goes out on trial and another shop looks at it, they will point all of these things out, perhaps killing the sale, perhaps not.

[sospiri]

5 minutes ago, duane88 said:

Because then you have a neck that is too long, a heel that is too small and the only real repair, if you visit your local violin maker/shop is to graft a neck to get the neck and heel correct, and that's expensive. 

We have numbers that have been arrived at over time and experience. I'd just move the board down to 130 if it were 133. I'd call it Defensive Luthiere. If it goes through a decent shop, I can't imagine them taking on a consignment with a 133 neck. You'd want to fix that, because if it goes out on trial and another shop looks at it, they will point all of these things out, perhaps killing the sale, perhaps not.

I was suggesting a 133 neck with a larger heel. But maybe your suggestion of making a new top is the best one. 

[Goran74]

Thank you all for your comments. 

[sospiri]

I would like to know what other posters think?

Especially with regards to this comment by Roger Hargrave from the Bass making thread 2013:

 Philosophically we may have our differences, but basically we are all trying to find the best models that we can and to copy them with as much experience, intelligence and intuition as we can muster. Moreover, as I have declared on many occasions, including most recently about baroque violins, there are no hard and fast rules in violin making either. Never mind bass makers, this should be the mantra for every violin maker everywhere.  "There are no hard and fast rules".

[uncle duke]

1 hour ago, sospiri said:

I would like to know what other posters think?

i'd want to know what the front edge before the mortice is cut to stop distance is first before recommending a length for the neck.

being correct scale wise the entire nut to bridge length is better than to just have a 130mm neck.

[sospiri]

58 minutes ago, uncle duke said:

i'd want to know what the front edge before the mortice is cut to stop distance is first before recommending a length for the neck.

being correct scale wise the entire nut to bridge length is better than to just have a 130mm neck.

What is the most important measurement?

Isn't it string length?

[deans]

16 minutes ago, sospiri said:

What is the most important measurement?

Isn't it string length?

Not for me. Its the neck to stop ratio. Either violin or viola. Others may disagree.

[Bodacious Cowboy]

1 hour ago, deans said:

Not for me. Its the neck to stop ratio. Either violin or viola. Others may disagree.

I don't disagree.

For violin, I'm fine with any body stop between about 192 and 197mm (depending on what is appropriate for the model), but always make the neck 2/3 of that. The string length is then whatever this arrangement makes it turn out to be. 

[sospiri]

7 hours ago, deans said:

Not for me. Its the neck to stop ratio. Either violin or viola. Others may disagree.

But do you aim for a specific string lengt

6 hours ago, Bodacious Cowboy said:

I don't disagree.

For violin, I'm fine with any body stop between about 192 and 197mm (depending on what is appropriate for the model), but always make the neck 2/3 of that. The string length is then whatever this arrangement makes it turn out to be. 

So how much variability do you get in string length?

[deans]

18 minutes ago, sospiri said:

But do you aim for a specific string lengt

I don't build instruments so I don't aim for anything. But when it comes to buying instruments I pass if it has an unusual stop/neck ratio. As a bigger guy and a viola player, I actually like violins that have a longer string length.

On a practical side, if you go too far out of range it can be difficult to find strings that tune up at an ideal tension. That's one of the reasons why most strings come in light, medium and heavy. If your string length is a little long go with the lights.

[Andreas Preuss]

On 2/24/2021 at 6:13 AM, Goran74 said:

I was copying an old east European violin that has some  geometrical issues. 

Why??

[DarylG]

How long are those f-holes? The position of the lower corner is fine if it's 202mm to the tip of the corner but the upper corners are low and might cause some clearance issues. I wouldn't want to make the stop length shorter as this will make the bow hand closer to the upper corner. I also wouldn't tilt the fingerboard toward the e-side when setting the neck. 

[Christopher Jacoby]

Don't stress about it. Cut notches where you want, put a 130 neck in, and move the bridge up til your string length is 330.  Carry on.

[sospiri]

38 minutes ago, deans said:

I don't build instruments so I don't aim for anything. But when it comes to buying instruments I pass if it has an unusual stop/neck ratio. As a bigger guy and a viola player, I actually like violins that have a longer string length.

On a practical side, if you go too far out of range it can be difficult to find strings that tune up at an ideal tension. That's one of the reasons why most strings come in light, medium and heavy. If your string length is a little long go with the lights.

I always measure string length on any instrument I have bought. I'm interested in different construction methods. I am interested to read other people's opinions on the subject.

[sospiri]

40 minutes ago, Andreas Preuss said:

Why??

Why not???