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Hello everybody. I need your opinions and help to id this one.

The construction looks like BOB, The varnish in the top are altered (striped or melted). In the back and ribs looks original and good looking.

It has little holes filled with black wood in the both C-bout ribs and in the pin hole.

Thank you.

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1 hour ago, jacobsaunders said:

A confusing violin. The longer I looked at it, the less I wanted to believe that the scroll belongs to the body

I agree, scroll looks older, possibly Mittenwald, or English, violin looks fairly run of the mill Schoenbach/Markneukirchen 1880s

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2 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

A confusing violin. The longer I looked at it, the less I wanted to believe that the scroll belongs to the body

Yes. That is a distinct possibility as the scroll is grafted. The holes look like worm damage to me. 

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2 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

A confusing violin. The longer I looked at it, the less I wanted to believe that the scroll belongs to the body

 

25 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

When trying to identify a violin, it is entirely irrelevant if it is grafted or not

Yes, a graft is irrelevant to the identity.   But doesn't the presence of a graft allow the possibility that the scroll doesn't belong to the body?

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The idea that a scroll graft is not important has never made any sense to me, no how matter how many esteemed experts tell me its true. If we put aside all the ones that were done at the factory, and the stupid Stanley scribed fake ones, we are left with genuine repaired scroll grafts.

The simple reason I cannot dismiss them is the cost to have the work done. To have a scroll replaced would cost an awful lot of money today. Was it any cheaper to have done 150 years ago ?  I have no idea, but it indicates the owner was not poor, and loved the violin enough to have it put back into playing condition.

So then we are left with the notion of "sentimentality". The luthier told the person that grandads violin was worthless and not worth repairing, but the owner insisted that he do it anyway. A possibility.

On the other hand I fully understand what is being said here, that for the purpose of identification the scroll graft needs to be counted out.

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9 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

you have to make your mind up: Are you trying to work out who made the violin, or are you trying to second guess subsequent people who did a repair years later?

Yes, I take your point, good advice, thanks.

I looked at this violin this morning and decided that I had no idea what it was. So decided I would put it down as  the first half of the 19th century German. But Ratcliffiddles has said its later, so I guess its the scroll graft that muddled my thinking to make   me think its something better than it is.

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19 minutes ago, Delabo said:

The simple reason I cannot dismiss them is the cost to have the work done. To have a scroll replaced would cost an awful lot of money today. Was it any cheaper to have done 150 years ago ?  I have no idea, but it indicates the owner was not poor, and loved the violin enough to have it put back into playing condition.

Or that a shop/restorer got it for free with a snapped neck.
Not all the people who own a violin make decisions on whether it is loveable.

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3 minutes ago, Delabo said:

Does anyone know what the notch in the scroll was for ?

It looks deliberate.

notch in scroll.jpg

As Blankface told me, this is a feature that could be found in Klotz and Hornesteiner scrolls. That is because the scroll looks older and more interesting.

Mathias Hornsteiner

Ägidius Kloz

http://www.geigenbaumuseum-mittenwald.de/index.php?id=105&L=2

 

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