jandepora Posted February 18 Report Share Posted February 18 Hello everybody. I need your opinions and help to id this one. The construction looks like BOB, The varnish in the top are altered (striped or melted). In the back and ribs looks original and good looking. It has little holes filled with black wood in the both C-bout ribs and in the pin hole. Thank you. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jandepora Posted February 19 Author Report Share Posted February 19 If it could help to identify. The LOB is 358 mm. Upper bout 167 mm. Center bout 116 mm. Lower bout 208 mm. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jacobsaunders Posted February 19 Report Share Posted February 19 A confusing violin. The longer I looked at it, the less I wanted to believe that the scroll belongs to the body Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ratcliffiddles Posted February 19 Report Share Posted February 19 1 hour ago, jacobsaunders said: A confusing violin. The longer I looked at it, the less I wanted to believe that the scroll belongs to the body I agree, scroll looks older, possibly Mittenwald, or English, violin looks fairly run of the mill Schoenbach/Markneukirchen 1880s Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgeH Posted February 19 Report Share Posted February 19 2 hours ago, jacobsaunders said: A confusing violin. The longer I looked at it, the less I wanted to believe that the scroll belongs to the body Yes. That is a distinct possibility as the scroll is grafted. The holes look like worm damage to me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jacobsaunders Posted February 19 Report Share Posted February 19 37 minutes ago, GeorgeH said: Yes. That is a distant possibility as the scroll is grafted. When trying to identify a violin, it is entirely irrelevant if it is grafted or not Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgeH Posted February 19 Report Share Posted February 19 4 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said: When trying to identify a violin, it is entirely irrelevant if it is grafted or not Not entirely. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jacobsaunders Posted February 19 Report Share Posted February 19 15 minutes ago, GeorgeH said: Not entirely. yes, entirely Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Brad Dorsey Posted February 19 Report Share Posted February 19 2 hours ago, jacobsaunders said: A confusing violin. The longer I looked at it, the less I wanted to believe that the scroll belongs to the body 25 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said: When trying to identify a violin, it is entirely irrelevant if it is grafted or not Yes, a graft is irrelevant to the identity. But doesn't the presence of a graft allow the possibility that the scroll doesn't belong to the body? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wood Butcher Posted February 19 Report Share Posted February 19 8 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said: yes, entirely You forgot about the Juzeks Quote Link to post Share on other sites
uncle duke Posted February 19 Report Share Posted February 19 french or english is what i was thinking yesterday - today could be a bohemian touch - just guessing.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jacobsaunders Posted February 19 Report Share Posted February 19 22 minutes ago, Brad Dorsey said: But doesn't the presence of a graft allow the possibility that the scroll doesn't belong to the body? It doesn't make a blind bit of difference Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jandepora Posted February 19 Author Report Share Posted February 19 Then a Schönbach / Markneukirchen is the consensus? whit a better scroll, maybe Mittenwald or English? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jacobsaunders Posted February 19 Report Share Posted February 19 31 minutes ago, jandepora said: Then a Schönbach / Markneukirchen is the consensus? whit a better scroll, maybe Mittenwald or English? I would be a good deal more noncommittal than that Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Delabo Posted February 19 Report Share Posted February 19 The idea that a scroll graft is not important has never made any sense to me, no how matter how many esteemed experts tell me its true. If we put aside all the ones that were done at the factory, and the stupid Stanley scribed fake ones, we are left with genuine repaired scroll grafts. The simple reason I cannot dismiss them is the cost to have the work done. To have a scroll replaced would cost an awful lot of money today. Was it any cheaper to have done 150 years ago ? I have no idea, but it indicates the owner was not poor, and loved the violin enough to have it put back into playing condition. So then we are left with the notion of "sentimentality". The luthier told the person that grandads violin was worthless and not worth repairing, but the owner insisted that he do it anyway. A possibility. On the other hand I fully understand what is being said here, that for the purpose of identification the scroll graft needs to be counted out. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jacobsaunders Posted February 19 Report Share Posted February 19 you have to make your mind up: Are you trying to work out who made the violin, or are you trying to second guess subsequent people who did a repair years later? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Delabo Posted February 19 Report Share Posted February 19 9 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said: you have to make your mind up: Are you trying to work out who made the violin, or are you trying to second guess subsequent people who did a repair years later? Yes, I take your point, good advice, thanks. I looked at this violin this morning and decided that I had no idea what it was. So decided I would put it down as the first half of the 19th century German. But Ratcliffiddles has said its later, so I guess its the scroll graft that muddled my thinking to make me think its something better than it is. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wood Butcher Posted February 19 Report Share Posted February 19 19 minutes ago, Delabo said: The simple reason I cannot dismiss them is the cost to have the work done. To have a scroll replaced would cost an awful lot of money today. Was it any cheaper to have done 150 years ago ? I have no idea, but it indicates the owner was not poor, and loved the violin enough to have it put back into playing condition. Or that a shop/restorer got it for free with a snapped neck. Not all the people who own a violin make decisions on whether it is loveable. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shelbow Posted February 19 Report Share Posted February 19 Or intentionally assembled to decieve/confuse for profit Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Delabo Posted February 19 Report Share Posted February 19 Ah ! good points, keep them coming. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wood Butcher Posted February 19 Report Share Posted February 19 Someone could also fit an entire neck from something else, which already had a grafted scroll. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ratcliffiddles Posted February 19 Report Share Posted February 19 1 minute ago, Wood Butcher said: Someone could also fit an entire neck from something else, which already had a grafted scroll. Most likely explanation Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jandepora Posted February 19 Author Report Share Posted February 19 When I see the varnish in the back I find it hard to think that it is "only" Marki / Schönbach. This kind of construction and model could point too to French or something else? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Delabo Posted February 19 Report Share Posted February 19 Does anyone know what the notch in the scroll was for ? It looks deliberate. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jandepora Posted February 19 Author Report Share Posted February 19 3 minutes ago, Delabo said: Does anyone know what the notch in the scroll was for ? It looks deliberate. As Blankface told me, this is a feature that could be found in Klotz and Hornesteiner scrolls. That is because the scroll looks older and more interesting. Mathias Hornsteiner Ägidius Kloz http://www.geigenbaumuseum-mittenwald.de/index.php?id=105&L=2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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