Help identification !! Violin 19th century, perhaps Northern Italian school ...


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1 hour ago, duane88 said:

Probablemente, pero no hago clic en enlaces que no conozco. Pierde el disco duro de la computadora de la tienda y el bookeeper y el contador me amarán ...

Duane It is a flikr gallery that allows you to upload the original photos at high resolution

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1 hour ago, Shelbow said:

But you may have non Italians (by nationality) that have lived in Italy most of, or their entire lives, it seems fair if they were to make a violin in Italy that it be considered Italian. I agree it seems a bit odd if you have for example a French maker trained in France in say a French style who then moves to Italy and makes violins that are then classed as Italian, but in many ways it does kind of make sense..... There was an example of this exact thing in the second to last Bromptons auction, but I forget the makers name. The instrument was listed as Italian as it was made in Italy, but in the notes it stated that the maker was French and that the instrument was French in style. I think as long as people are open about it in that way I can accept it being classed as an Italian violin.

For me personally I do not make violins (yet ha ha) but I hope to make (good) bows in the future. I was born and raised in the UK, but due to the law at the time I am not a British citizen and have never had British nationailty. I have since birth been a French national and registered as such with the French consulate in London. If I was to make bows in England that found their way for sale, I would expect them to be listed as English bows despite myself not being English. I would however feel that by law I could consider myself a French bow maker as I am a citizen of France, despite having never studied in France and not being able to speak the language very well :P. I'm sure if I ever made good bows (ha ha), some auction house would find a way to list them as French bows..........

As I said its an interesting subject :lol:.

 

 

 

 

 

Poor Cherubini,  an Italian composer living in France.  His therapist must have made a mint.

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19 minutes ago, PhilipKT said:

Poor Cherubini,  an Italian composer living in France.  His therapist must have made a mint.

Every medium gets treated differently when it come to where something or someone is from it seems....

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Now I'm wondering (part of today's procrastination program that I'm apparently fine-tuning <_<) how badly "globalization" has damaged our sense of self, identity, community, etc.

For example; if it doesn't matter what we are (genetically) why are so many people flocking to see what they are on the DNA registries? Especially given how inaccurate they are?

Why are so many people eschewing purebred dogs as "bad" and then proudly proclaiming that their mutt is 45% Labrador - because they just had to know what breed it was?

Why do adoptees look up their birth parents? 

I'm German (going back as far back as we can tell) and Canadian. I strongly identify with both. My kids are 1/2 German, 1/4 Walloon and 1/4 Polish. They find it interesting - but apparently just identify as Canadian. 

So some care, others not so much. Does it matter (personally/purchasing items) more to the older generation than the new? Are the young more happy to embrace the melting pot?

Is the world just going turn into a giant Walmart filled with Walmart shoppers?

 

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26 minutes ago, Rue said:

Now I'm wondering (part of today's procrastination program that I'm apparently fine-tuning <_<) how badly "globalization" has damaged our sense of self, identity, community, etc.

For example; if it doesn't matter what we are (genetically) why are so many people flocking to see what they are on the DNA registries? Especially given how inaccurate they are?

Why are so many people eschewing purebred dogs as "bad" and then proudly proclaiming that their mutt is 45% Labrador - because they just had to know what breed it was?

Why do adoptees look up their birth parents? 

I'm German (going back as far back as we can tell) and Canadian. I strongly identify with both. My kids are 1/2 German, 1/4 Walloon and 1/4 Polish. They find it interesting - but apparently just identify as Canadian. 

So some care, others not so much. Does it matter (personally/purchasing items) more to the older generation than the new? Are the young more happy to embrace the melting pot?

Is the world just going turn into a giant Walmart filled with Walmart shoppers?

 

My stepdaughter was flabbergasted to learn she is 100% chinese.

when I learned I laughed and said,”purebred! Let’s head for the show!”

She was not amused 

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2 hours ago, Ramon M said:

Duane It is a flikr gallery that allows you to upload the original photos at high resolution

Yes, I understand, but as a new poster with no history I would be, and am, reluctant to follow links. I happily look at pictures posted on the board.

 

I wasn't trying to be mean, just safe.

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28 minutes ago, Rue said:

Now I'm wondering (part of today's procrastination program that I'm apparently fine-tuning <_<) how badly "globalization" has damaged our sense of self, identity, community, etc.

For example; if it doesn't matter what we are (genetically) why are so many people flocking to see what they are on the DNA registries? Especially given how inaccurate they are?

Why are so many people eschewing purebred dogs as "bad" and then proudly proclaiming that their mutt is 45% Labrador - because they just had to know what breed it was?

Why do adoptees look up their birth parents? 

I'm German (going back as far back as we can tell) and Canadian. I strongly identify with both. My kids are 1/2 German, 1/4 Walloon and 1/4 Polish. They find it interesting - but apparently just identify as Canadian. 

So some care, others not so much. Does it matter (personally/purchasing items) more to the older generation than the new? Are the young more happy to embrace the melting pot?

Is the world just going turn into a giant Walmart filled with Walmart shoppers?

 

Eventually, violins will just be violins. The building techniques are not instilled in young apprentices and information is so free-not a bad thing-that practices limited to cities, regions, or even families, will become nonexistent in modern building. I don't think that it was makers identifying as being from Naples or Milan. They just did what they were taught. Your kids live in Canada, so they think of themselves as Canadian. There are old folks here in Ballard, a small Scandanavial enclave in Seattle, who have lived in Ballard all of their life, but identify as Scandanavian because of where their ancestors came from. Thier children also seem to identify as American.

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Living in a country which I wasn't born in, it's interesting to see how the need to belong changes over the generations. Those who emigrated to America (as an example), always had strong feelings and pride towards their old country, even though their lives there may have been terrible due to poverty, repression etc.

The next generation pick this up strongly from their parents and relatives, but over time it seems the need to say where your ancestors were from diminishes, and probably by the third generation becomes almost irrelevant unless there still happens to be family to visit in the old country, or holidays there.

 

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10 hours ago, Delabo said:

Its an early 19th century Italian violin of unknown origin according to the certificate that the OP has for it.

I guess the reason that the unknown certificate issuer has come to that conclusion is because of the generic description that Andreas has already mentioned. Freehand form - with a bit of flair. And I guess wood and varnish could be added in to make the identification.

 

10 hours ago, Delabo said:

Its an early 19th century Italian violin of unknown origin according to the certificate that the OP has for it.

I guess the reason that the unknown certificate issuer has come to that conclusion is because of the generic description that Andreas has already mentioned. Freehand form - with a bit of flair. And I guess wood and varnish could be added in to make the identification.

 

There are tons of wrong certificates around.

It is really the question if wood and varnish can make it up to identify a specific maker. We should rather learn to accept the fact that there a quite many violins unidentifiable. They are just freehand made with a bit of flair. I think thats good enough. Any other twisting is just aiming at monetary profit and not about finding the truth.

 

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7 hours ago, duane88 said:

I believe that it was Hamma who said something like, 'When I see a violin I don't think to myself, what is ist?, but rather, What can I sell it as?'

The innards tell stories in ye olden times. You might learn in Naples, move to Florida and adopt a different style, but the interior work is probably still Naples.

There are also stories of the past about Panormo. Dealers in England made the joke that they buy a Panormo as an English fiddle and sell it as Italian.

 

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9 hours ago, GeorgeH said:

They aren't ALWAYS. They are also thought to be American. :)

That's actually what I was aiming at. After having seen and studied many samples in the Bromberg collection I couldn't help thinking: Just like in Italy in the 19th century. Makers enthusiastically building their own ideas of violin making. The result is a highly individualized style.

And  this is quite opposite to what we see in Germany or France with makers going through a strict and 1/10 millimeter precise training. 

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8 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

Unless it is something like a Fiorini, who spent his adult life in Munich, where the violins are curiously Italian

Or George Ullmann (from Bad Elster) whose violins made in Italy are going as modern Italian, just because he Italianized his name to Giorgio Ullmann.

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7 hours ago, Rue said:

Maybe we need to start using more terminology like the visual arts do; "school of", "attributed to", "in the style of". Still vague, but more useful as far as brand characterisation goes.

There is certainly a need to revise the terminology for the characterization of violins. We are just using a terminology built by experts in the 19th century for instruments made in the 18th century and before. The terminology reflects the idea that you can track down an individual maker by using a sort of pattern which goes First identify the country, then the city and then the maker in the the city.  

However, already in the 17th century we see some 'shake up' with nummerous makers fleeing the 30 year war, in particular makers from Fuessen going all over the plave in Europe. Later Hugenots were driven out of France and the French revolution made makers on the run to safer places. Later the Napoleonic wars forced violin makers to go and seek better income outside their home towns. (Storioni apparently went to Fiume for this reason)

But the real 'shake up' came through the industrial revolution scattering people almost on any spots on the planet. And I see this as the very reason why we can't stick to the old terminology using country names as a sort of valid attribution. There are so many names of violin makers who went abroad that I couldn't name them all. One of the most curious example is a violin maker from Markneukirchen who went to Mexico (from the top of my head he was from the Guetter family, might be wrong...)

I wouldn't be able to come up with a bullet proof alternative right here on the spot. If thinking in any direction I think it would be wiser to focus on influential identified makers and analyze what sort of influence they had on other makers. And this would look eventually on the fact which violins were succesful on the market and for which reasons. All the rest is just like marginal stuff and should be treated as in the art world with no further twisting thoughts: Unindentified master or Unknowwn amateur.

 

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How about this: The current (last 30 years) crop of Cremonese makers encompass many nationalities. Many started their career in Cremona, and never left. Every instrument they made was made in Cremona. Yet they are not Italian, at all. I'm thinking of several examples, an Austrian, a Columbian, Danish, Swedish and on and on. So, would these instruments, made in Cremona, with Cremonese training, but by a non-Italian, be considered Italian instruments?

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26 minutes ago, arglebargle said:

How about this: The current (last 30 years) crop of Cremonese makers encompass many nationalities. Many started their career in Cremona, and never left. Every instrument they made was made in Cremona. Yet they are not Italian, at all. I'm thinking of several examples, an Austrian, a Columbian, Danish, Swedish and on and on. So, would these instruments, made in Cremona, with Cremonese training, but by a non-Italian, be considered Italian instruments?

You can make a lucky guess why there are soooo many foreigners in Cremona. :D

However, for this reason I think it is better and makes sense to classify them as 'Morassi school', 'Bissolotti school' etc. etc. etc.

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7 hours ago, Rue said:

Now I'm wondering (part of today's procrastination program that I'm apparently fine-tuning <_<) how badly "globalization" has damaged our sense of self, identity, community, etc.

For example; if it doesn't matter what we are (genetically) why are so many people flocking to see what they are on the DNA registries? Especially given how inaccurate they are?

Why are so many people eschewing purebred dogs as "bad" and then proudly proclaiming that their mutt is 45% Labrador - because they just had to know what breed it was?

Why do adoptees look up their birth parents? 

I'm German (going back as far back as we can tell) and Canadian. I strongly identify with both. My kids are 1/2 German, 1/4 Walloon and 1/4 Polish. They find it interesting - but apparently just identify as Canadian. 

So some care, others not so much. Does it matter (personally/purchasing items) more to the older generation than the new? Are the young more happy to embrace the melting pot?

Is the world just going turn into a giant Walmart filled with Walmart shoppers?

 

The world IS already a huge walmart called the 'global market'. 

In this sense I would eventually think that it is free for each maker to define his/her own nationality as a maker.

I define myself as a Japanese Murata-school-maker, I was trained here, served my journeyman years in various countries and came back, just as many other Japanese makers. Who cares that my passport was issued by German authorities?

For my schooling I am heavy on French for restorations, and took the best I could from Markneukirchen and Budapest. If some experts will in the far future look on my output (or more likely nobody will be interested in doing that) they will probably scratch their heads not knowing in which drawer they should put it. 

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So far this is the violin that has taken the most to have a somewhat solid opinion about. Do you all just think it is too idiosyncratic to classify? I’ve taken a look at the pictures by OP and it reminds me of Steinhardt’s violin, that supposedly started as a viola!

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3 hours ago, Arbos said:

So far this is the violin that has taken the most to have a somewhat solid opinion about. Do you all just think it is too idiosyncratic to classify? I’ve taken a look at the pictures by OP and it reminds me of Steinhardt’s violin, that supposedly started as a viola!

I suppose this is being presented as something like Pelizon?

Personally I don't see anything in this violin that would make me think "Italian". It seems to be something made by a very able woodworker, but I can't see any signs of a particular tradition.

The maker struggled with the c bouts, which are unusually open and also asymmetrical (and not in a good way).

The f-holes are disproportionately long (these two things in conjunction make it look a bit like a cut down viola).

The recurve on the arching is very exaggerated to a point which must jeopardise the strength of the arching - it can surely not be good for the tone either. Incidentally this proves that it isn't a cut down viola, rather an ill-conceived violin, since one of the most common features of a cut-down is the lack of any recurve.

Ebay and the internet have caused this kind of violin to whizz around the globe, but at one time it would have been safe to say that it was probably made within 50 miles or so of where it was found.

 

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On 2/8/2021 at 12:27 PM, duane88 said:

I believe that it was Hamma who said something like, 'When I see a violin I don't think to myself, what is ist?, but rather, What can I sell it as?'

The innards tell stories in ye olden times. You might learn in Naples, move to Florida and adopt a different style, but the interior work is probably still Naples.

Bob Bein would ask "Are we buying or selling?"

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On 2/9/2021 at 11:31 AM, martin swan said:

I suppose this is being presented as something like Pelizon?

Personally I don't see anything in this violin that would make me think "Italian". It seems to be something made by a very able woodworker, but I can't see any signs of a particular tradition.

The maker struggled with the c bouts, which are unusually open and also asymmetrical (and not in a good way).

The f-holes are disproportionately long (these two things in conjunction make it look a bit like a cut down viola).

The recurve on the arching is very exaggerated to a point which must jeopardise the strength of the arching - it can surely not be good for the tone either. Incidentally this proves that it isn't a cut down viola, rather an ill-conceived violin, since one of the most common features of a cut-down is the lack of any recurve.

Ebay and the internet have caused this kind of violin to whizz around the globe, but at one time it would have been safe to say that it was probably made within 50 miles or so of where it was found.

 

Very interesting, thanks!

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The more I look at this violin, the more strange it looks. Or is it the photos and shadows that are exaggerating how deep the channel around the edges are ?

Although Pelizon school violins have a deep channel (recurve ?) they do not look anywhere as deep as this one.

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...just been reading in Jalovec's Bohemian Makers (rather than just looking at the pictures for a change), and was wondering if the OP violin could be rural Czech?

Unlikely an area of expertise for anyone?

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  • 4 weeks later...
Posted (edited)

Pues les dejo una muestra de audio de este violín de incógnito. Veo que incluso los más entendidos tienen dificultades para localizarlo. Próximamente estaré subiendo una foto de su interior donde la inscripción VP entra dentro de un círculo (coincide con la parte inferior de la foto)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yw5xqj7joLMpHE9BQ8SDSaU0F_2LU4kQ/view?usp=sharing

 

Edited by Ramon M
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