Help identification !! Violin 19th century, perhaps Northern Italian school ...


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Tiene 35,5 de largo, ancho superior 16,8, ancho inferior 20,5 y 11,2 en el centro. En el interior hay un VP marcado con fuego dentro de un óvalo. En el botón también. Está certificado por la primera mitad del XIX e Italia, pero su origen es incierto. Quizás de alguna escuela del norte de Italia.
Muchas gracias de antemano por tu ayuda.
ps He tomado las fotos siguiendo las instrucciones de este foro y usando un Flash externo rebotado sobre un fondo negro.

Galería de fotos  Full Resolution  

Muestra de sonido https://drive.google.com/file/d/1yw5xqj7joLMpHE9BQ8SDSaU0F_2LU4kQ/view?usp=sharing

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Edited by Ramon M
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11 hours ago, Andreas Preuss said:

:huh:

I am asking myself again and again WHY all violins which are somehow freehand made with a bit of flair are ALWAYS thought to be ITALIAN??

 

I think you just answered your own question. :)

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20 minutes ago, PhilipKT said:

Well, what IS it?

Its an early 19th century Italian violin of unknown origin according to the certificate that the OP has for it.

I guess the reason that the unknown certificate issuer has come to that conclusion is because of the generic description that Andreas has already mentioned. Freehand form - with a bit of flair. And I guess wood and varnish could be added in to make the identification.

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12 hours ago, Andreas Preuss said:

I am asking myself again and again WHY all violins which are somehow freehand made with a bit of flair are ALWAYS thought to be ITALIAN??

They aren't ALWAYS. They are also thought to be American. :)

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I might have asked this before (sorry if I did)...but...:ph34r:

If an Italian luthier moves to the USA and keeps making violins the same way they always have been making them...

Are those violins Italian or American?

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25 minutes ago, Rue said:

I might have asked this before (sorry if I did)...but...:ph34r:

If an Italian luthier moves to the USA and keeps making violins the same way they always have been making them...

Are those violins Italian or American?

You see a lot of instruments at auction where say for example a French maker has moved to Italy or to the UK etc, and the Violins are always stated as being of the country they were created in rather than that of the nationality of the maker. This is what I have observed in any case.

I do find this an interesting subject though.

 

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Well, any origin is possible ... but I would appreciate verified information that provides some information that helps me know more about this instrument. I am sure that with your experience and knowledge I will get closer. Thank you so much for everything

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1 hour ago, Shelbow said:

You see a lot of instruments at auction where say for example a French maker has moved to Italy or to the UK etc, and the Violins are always stated as being of the country they were created in rather than that of the nationality of the maker. This is what I have observed in any case.

I do find this an interesting subject though.

 

Unless it is something like a Fiorini, who spent his adult life in Munich, where the violins are curiously Italian

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2 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

Unless it is something like a Fiorini, who spent his adult life in Munich, where the violins are curiously Italian

Ha Ha well im sure if there is anyway an instrument can be stated as being Italian that will of course trump all other information.

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Regional attribution...funny stuff.^_^

So then, in many ways, "Italian" has just become the marketing/jargon/vernacular name for (supposed) high end violins. 

Technically it should only cover violins made in Italy by Italians - any example of which may not even be remotely high-end.

Just looking at a picture of an instrument tells you very little of who/where made it.

Maybe we need to start using more terminology like the visual arts do; "school of", "attributed to", "in the style of". Still vague, but more useful as far as brand characterisation goes.

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The experts don’t care where it was REALLY made, and I’m not being silly. They can look at the details and say “this is X  location” so if Nontoni train in Naples Italy  and moves to Naples Florida, his stuff will still look Neapolitan. Might start using Florida wood, though.

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I didn't mean the well-known instruments (with documented provenance) of course...more the newer instruments.

Sorry. Wasn't clear.

Strads clearly ARE Italian. :P

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16 hours ago, Jwillis said:

There are quite a few photos posted via the phot gallery link...

Probably, but I don't click on links that I don't know. Lose the hard drive on the shop computer and the bookeeper and accountant will love me...

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18 minutes ago, PhilipKT said:

The experts don’t care where it was REALLY made, and I’m not being silly. They can look at the details and say “this is X  location” so if Nontoni train in Naples Italy  and moves to Naples Florida, his stuff will still look Neapolitan. Might start using Florida wood, though.

I believe that it was Hamma who said something like, 'When I see a violin I don't think to myself, what is ist?, but rather, What can I sell it as?'

The innards tell stories in ye olden times. You might learn in Naples, move to Florida and adopt a different style, but the interior work is probably still Naples.

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11 minutes ago, Rue said:

Regional attribution...funny stuff.^_^

So then, in many ways, "Italian" has just become the marketing/jargon/vernacular name for (supposed) high end violins. 

Technically it should only cover violins made in Italy by Italians - any example of which may not even be remotely high-end.

Just looking at a picture of an instrument tells you very little of who/where made it.

Maybe we need to start using more terminology like the visual arts do; "school of", "attributed to", "in the style of". Still vague, but more useful as far as brand characterisation goes.

But you may have non Italians (by nationality) that have lived in Italy most of, or their entire lives, it seems fair if they were to make a violin in Italy that it be considered Italian. I agree it seems a bit odd if you have for example a French maker trained in France in say a French style who then moves to Italy and makes violins that are then classed as Italian, but in many ways it does kind of make sense..... There was an example of this exact thing in the second to last Bromptons auction, but I forget the makers name. The instrument was listed as Italian as it was made in Italy, but in the notes it stated that the maker was French and that the instrument was French in style. I think as long as people are open about it in that way I can accept it being classed as an Italian violin.

For me personally I do not make violins (yet ha ha) but I hope to make (good) bows in the future. I was born and raised in the UK, but due to the law at the time I am not a British citizen and have never had British nationailty. I have since birth been a French national and registered as such with the French consulate in London. If I was to make bows in England that found their way for sale, I would expect them to be listed as English bows despite myself not being English. I would however feel that by law I could consider myself a French bow maker as I am a citizen of France, despite having never studied in France and not being able to speak the language very well :P. I'm sure if I ever made good bows (ha ha), some auction house would find a way to list them as French bows..........

As I said its an interesting subject :lol:.

 

 

 

 

 

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22 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

Don’t say out loud that you’re French, they won't vaccinate you:)

It's ok I'm last on the list anyway. By the time it gets to me it will have mutated with ebola to become the covola virus :ph34r:

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