sphere101 Posted January 27, 2021 Report Share Posted January 27, 2021 Hi all. Are there any manufacturers currently producing good-quality violins that don't use ebony wood for the fretboard or fittings? (I am striking out in my search.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wood Butcher Posted January 27, 2021 Report Share Posted January 27, 2021 Most student violins do not use ebony, just other woods painted black, these aren't good quality instruments however. I'm sure if you wanted an instrument, which did not use ebony, most individual makers would be able to accommodate your wishes. Synthetic fingerboards have been available for a few years now, although they do have issues. Fittings can be made from a wide variety of woods, or even synthetic materials. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Kasprzyk Posted January 27, 2021 Report Share Posted January 27, 2021 I was quite impressed with the appearance and properties of "Sonowood" which is a compressed natural wood (spruce, maple, walnut). https://swisswoodsolutions.ch/assets/docs/Sonowood_Strings_EN.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Dorsey Posted January 27, 2021 Report Share Posted January 27, 2021 I find that the presence or absence of ebony fingerboards* and pegs on the modern manufactured violins that I encounter is a good indicator of overall quality. If these fittings are not ebony, the instruments are junk not worth bothering with. If they are ebony, the instruments are likely to be decent inexpensive student instruments at worst. * Violins don't have frets, so they don't have fretboards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FiddleDoug Posted January 27, 2021 Report Share Posted January 27, 2021 14 minutes ago, Brad Dorsey said: I find that the presence or absence of ebony fingerboards* and pegs on the modern manufactured violins that I encounter is a good indicator of overall quality. If these fittings are not ebony, the instruments are junk not worth bothering with. If they are ebony, the instruments are likely to be decent inexpensive student instruments at worst. * Violins don't have frets, so they don't have fretboards. Ditto on that!! "Most student violins do not use ebony, just other woods painted black" Those instruments often don't even rise to the grade of student instruments. I won't stock them, no matter what the price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borisravel Posted January 27, 2021 Report Share Posted January 27, 2021 That's we call a baroque violin... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duane88 Posted January 28, 2021 Report Share Posted January 28, 2021 I can easily see the day when we will be using hardwood core fingerboards with ebony veneer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sphere101 Posted January 28, 2021 Author Report Share Posted January 28, 2021 6 hours ago, Wood Butcher said: I'm sure if you wanted an instrument, which did not use ebony, most individual makers would be able to accommodate your wishes. I'm reconciled to potentially going that route, but (simply due to lead time and cost) I am hoping someone out there knows of a regular production model that is of good quality. Ebony has serious sustainability issues, and I'd like to avoid it if at all possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wood Butcher Posted January 28, 2021 Report Share Posted January 28, 2021 They won’t be on cheap instruments, and I’m not sure taking off an Ebony one, in order to fit a synthetic version will do much for the environment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deans Posted January 28, 2021 Report Share Posted January 28, 2021 Yeah, the only real choice, if you want a good instrument, is to request a maker to make you a new instrument with alternate materials. I'm sure that the Chinese trade will also supply a new violin with a different fingerboard. Talk to a dealer that works closely with them. Of course you may end up with something thats even more endangered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stringcheese Posted January 28, 2021 Report Share Posted January 28, 2021 I have somewhat mixed feelings about the wood we use in these things. On one hand, preservation by substituting some alternative material sounds noble. On the other hand, making these woods and the environment that they live in valuable in their own right can lead to preservation. A good deal of the Brazilian rain forest, for example, has been lost to slash and burn agriculture. If we can make these materials valuable enough to encourage sustainable harvesting and environmental preservation, we may well come out ahead. There are some people doing exactly that, notably with pernambuco in Brazil, but I would love to see similar movements in other parts of the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilipKT Posted January 29, 2021 Report Share Posted January 29, 2021 I suggested Bois d’Arc but someone said it felt wrong, although it’s certainly hard enough to be a fingerboard, and god knows there’s plenty of Bois d’Arc around. But it will be a long time before we run out of pernambuco that has already been harvested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Burgess Posted January 29, 2021 Report Share Posted January 29, 2021 On 1/28/2021 at 1:12 PM, stringcheese said: I have somewhat mixed feelings about the wood we use in these things. On one hand, preservation by substituting some alternative material sounds noble. On the other hand, making these woods and the environment that they live in valuable in their own right can lead to preservation. A good deal of the Brazilian rain forest, for example, has been lost to slash and burn agriculture. If we can make these materials valuable enough to encourage sustainable harvesting and environmental preservation, we may well come out ahead. There are some people doing exactly that, notably with pernambuco in Brazil, but I would love to see similar movements in other parts of the world. A large part of the Brazilian economy relies on beef, and sugar cane. Neither do well in rain forests. The market price of some of the displaced wood is so low, that it's cheaper to burn it, than haul it out, process it, and sell it. How much more are you willing to pay, to prevent this wood from going up in smoke? The feedback I have had so far on synthetic fingerboards (including those which are made of compressed wood and resin impregnated) is that there two significant issues: One is adhesion. They don't stay glued very well. A reputation for fingerboards popping off would not be good for my "legend". The other is that among the few synthetic fingerboards I have tested, "plastic deformation" was an issue. The fingerboard is a major contributor to the strength of the neck, and if the fingerboard deforms easily, (whether in several days, or several years), "Houston, we have a problem". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilipKT Posted January 30, 2021 Report Share Posted January 30, 2021 1 hour ago, David Burgess said: A large part of the Brazilian economy relies on beef, and sugar cane. Neither do well in rain forests. The market price of some of the displaced wood is so low, that it's cheaper to burn it, than haul it out, process it, and sell it. How much more are you willing to pay, to prevent this wood from going up in smoke? The feedback I have had so far on synthetic fingerboards (including those which are made of compressed wood and resin impregnated) is that there two significant issues: One is adhesion. They don't stay glued very well. A reputation for fingerboards popping off would not be good for my "legend". The other is that among the few synthetic fingerboards I have tested, "plastic deformation" was an issue. The fingerboard is a major contributor to the strength of the neck, and if the fingerboard deforms easily, (whether in several days, or several years), "Houston, we have a problem". How about Bois d’Arc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guglielmus Carinius Posted January 30, 2021 Report Share Posted January 30, 2021 20 minutes ago, PhilipKT said: How about Bois d’Arc? I think maybe you are referring to Maclura pomifera, or osage orange? I made a nut for one of my fiddles a few years ago out of this wood, and it seems to be holding up well. But the grain was relatively coarse, so not so easy to get a nice smooth surface. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Kasprzyk Posted January 30, 2021 Report Share Posted January 30, 2021 13 minutes ago, PhilipKT said: How about Bois d’Arc? Thanks for the suggestion!'' I just read that it is very rot resistant-- I'll try it for my viola fingerboards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guglielmus Carinius Posted January 30, 2021 Report Share Posted January 30, 2021 I'd be curious to try using persimmon (same genus as ebony: Diospyros). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FiddleDoug Posted January 30, 2021 Report Share Posted January 30, 2021 Here's a wood hardness chart. There aren't too many as hard as Ebony. https://www.precisebits.com/reference/relative_hardness_table.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilipKT Posted January 30, 2021 Report Share Posted January 30, 2021 Yes it’s the same wood as Osage orange. Someone said the feel of the worked wood was wrong. I’m not sure what they meant, never having played on anything but ebony. But I do think it would be lovely if it did work. But it is incredibly hard and supposedly ruins a lot of saw blades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSchabbon Posted January 30, 2021 Report Share Posted January 30, 2021 23 hours ago, David Burgess said: A large part of the Brazilian economy relies on beef, and sugar cane. Neither do well in rain forests. The market price of some of the displaced wood is so low, that it's cheaper to burn it, than haul it out, process it, and sell it. How much more are you willing to pay, to prevent this wood from going up in smoke? The feedback I have had so far on synthetic fingerboards (including those which are made of compressed wood and resin impregnated) is that there two significant issues: One is adhesion. They don't stay glued very well. A reputation for fingerboards popping off would not be good for my "legend". The other is that among the few synthetic fingerboards I have tested, "plastic deformation" was an issue. The fingerboard is a major contributor to the strength of the neck, and if the fingerboard deforms easily, (whether in several days, or several years), "Houston, we have a problem". David, I do have a different opinion on this one, I have used quite a few Corene fingerboards over the last 2-3 years. Not one has fallen off or even become partially unglued, and yes, I did use thick bone glue for all of them. I also find that they are more stable. I have experienced much more warping with ebony than with corene. They are also harder, which makes fitting them a bit more difficult, especially the sides, but I have had the impression they wear considerably less than ebony. I have only ever used corene, never a different brand so I can't say anything about maybe lower grades of synthetic fingerboards. The only downside is that they are a little more heavy. So far I have not noticed any negative effect on the sound though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marty Kasprzyk Posted January 31, 2021 Report Share Posted January 31, 2021 43 minutes ago, CSchabbon said: > The only downside is that they are a little more heavy. So far I have not noticed any negative effect on the sound though. I'm not sure that heavier fingerboards are a downside. I've done the opposite and made some very light fingerboards out of Paulonia (~0.26 g/cc) Sitka spruce (~0.40). These lower density woods do not have adequate wear resistance. I've mentioned previously that this can be overcome by using a hard epoxy fingerboard coating. David Burgess has recently stated that creep resistance is also important. I agree and some have been reinforced with internal carbon fiber tubes in the neck. So inadequate wear resistance and creep resistance of low density woods can be overcome. But I now suspect some of my earlier violins and violas made with heavier fingerboards produced more sound out put than these light ones. I've tried to mathematically model a coupled two body vibrating system (violin body coupled with a neck/ fingerboard) and I conclude that the neck and fingerboard should be heavy. This causes the violin body to vibrate more which should produce a bigger sound output. One of my projects for 2021 is to make a violin or viola with bolted on interchangeable necks/fingerboards made from widly different density woods to see where I'm going wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Burgess Posted January 31, 2021 Report Share Posted January 31, 2021 Thanks Christian. How about removal? Will alcohol help release these, similar to the way it does with hide glue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSchabbon Posted January 31, 2021 Report Share Posted January 31, 2021 20 hours ago, David Burgess said: Thanks Christian. How about removal? Will alcohol help release these, similar to the way it does with hide glue? I have not had to remove any so far, I can only imagine it must be a similar experience as hide glue and ebony fingerboards. The interesting fact (after a lot of testing I did in 2019/20) is that bone glue is not the strongest glue out there by far, it just seems to adhere very well to corene. By the way, I also started using bone glue to glue on ebony boards. I believe that somehow bone glue bone glue suits denser woods, spruce is asking for a little longer glue molecules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffrey Holmes Posted January 31, 2021 Report Share Posted January 31, 2021 1 hour ago, CSchabbon said: I have not had to remove any so far, I can only imagine it must be a similar experience as hide glue and ebony fingerboards. The interesting fact (after a lot of testing I did in 2019/20) is that bone glue is not the strongest glue out there by far, it just seems to adhere very well to corene. By the way, I also started using bone glue to glue on ebony boards. I believe that somehow bone glue bone glue suits denser woods, spruce is asking for a little longer glue molecules. I haven't used the Corene boards yet... but am waiting for an opportunity to do so. Like to do so with a client I can "follow" easily. I believe a schoolmate, John-Eric Traelnes, was involved in their development (and he's a pretty sharp guy) and I've heard a number of good reports from those who have used them. The website states they include a "natural" glue with the board... which I thought odd... know what it is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSchabbon Posted January 31, 2021 Report Share Posted January 31, 2021 37 minutes ago, Jeffrey Holmes said: I haven't used the Corene boards yet... but am waiting for an opportunity to do so. Like to do so with a client I can "follow" easily. I believe a schoolmate, John-Eric Traelnes, was involved in their development (and he's a pretty sharp guy) and I've heard a number of good reports from those who have used them. The website states they include a "natural" glue with the board... which I thought odd... know what it is? Yes, they send small bags with glue with every single board, labelled 'bone glue'. I think they do that since they had complaints from people with boards becoming unglued, must be 3 or so years back. Sometimes I use their glue, most of the times just finely ground Kremer bone glue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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