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E.H. Roth Violin


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On 7/24/2021 at 6:56 AM, Strad O Various Jr. said:

I would think genuine Roth would have c bout liners inset into the corner blocks, at least the ones I've seen did, maybe not in 1920

No, they didn't have the C bout liners like that, you are thinking something more like Mittenwald?  That inside work looks very  much like the inside work of Roth's I have opened.  Slight bevels in the blocks and the like.  Inside is clean, but I've opened many 100yr old violins that clean before.  I'm betting it's a Roth.  Has anyone written a good book on Id'ing and history for the Roth firm? Different stamps, labels, constructed grafts/crowns etc.  I've always wanted to know where the bows came from, certainly not the shop itself.  

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20 hours ago, GeorgeH said:

And how you know the grafts were original on the Roths? Did you buy them from the factory when they were new?

The grafts on my 1952 and 1969 copy of 1724 Strad. and ebony button crowns are factory made

 "bells & whistles." The 1975 Roth catalog shows the No. VIIR (1724) model with the ebony button crown. I've inferred that, it also has a grafted scroll. Benning Violins had a 1930 with factory grafts, w/bushings and ebony button crown.  https://www.benningviolins.com/Fine-Violin-Catalog-Fine-Violins-for-Sale-Ernst-Heinrich-Roth-violin-643.html   The 1952(L) and 1969(R) grafts are spliced between the D&E pegs, making a stronger joint than the graft on the "1923" Roth, with  the splice between the G & E pegs.

 

184797915_ScreenShot2021-07-27at4_52_11AM.thumb.png.81cb02d665e813d0b603358e17183694.png2066181211_ScreenShot2021-07-27at4_51_50AM.thumb.png.c6a352e283dcd8254eb71d4ebe2e668e.png667196160_ScreenShot2021-07-27at4_58_06AM.thumb.png.522f5e2e3c238ca663fef5c50634a384.png

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3 hours ago, khunsakee said:

The grafts on my 1952 and 1969 copy of 1724 Strad. and ebony button crowns are factory made

 "bells & whistles." The 1975 Roth catalog shows the No. VIIR (1724) model with the ebony button crown. I've inferred that, it also has a grafted scroll. Benning Violins had a 1930 with factory grafts, w/bushings and ebony button crown.  https://www.benningviolins.com/Fine-Violin-Catalog-Fine-Violins-for-Sale-Ernst-Heinrich-Roth-violin-643.html   The 1952(L) and 1969(R) grafts are spliced between the D&E pegs, making a stronger joint than the graft on the "1923" Roth, with  the splice between the G & E pegs.

 

184797915_ScreenShot2021-07-27at4_52_11AM.thumb.png.81cb02d665e813d0b603358e17183694.png2066181211_ScreenShot2021-07-27at4_51_50AM.thumb.png.c6a352e283dcd8254eb71d4ebe2e668e.png667196160_ScreenShot2021-07-27at4_58_06AM.thumb.png.522f5e2e3c238ca663fef5c50634a384.png

Thanks.  Your post's link and photos prove both that the EHR and Scherl & Roth firms were associated, as well as that EHR is and always was a workshop rather than a bespoke maker (old MN controversies).  

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16 hours ago, Jeff White said:

No, they didn't have the C bout liners like that, you are thinking something more like Mittenwald?  That inside work looks very  much like the inside work of Roth's I have opened.  Slight bevels in the blocks and the like.  Inside is clean, but I've opened many 100yr old violins that clean before.  I'm betting it's a Roth.  Has anyone written a good book on Id'ing and history for the Roth firm? Different stamps, labels, constructed grafts/crowns etc.  I've always wanted to know where the bows came from, certainly not the shop itself.  

I've seen ones that do have inset liners, even inset into the bottom block etc

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1 hour ago, Violadamore said:

Thanks.  Your post's link and photos prove both that the EHR and Scherl & Roth firms were associated, as well as that EHR is and always was a workshop rather than a bespoke maker (old MN controversies).  

I don't see not have I seen any evidence EH Roth was associated with Scherl and Roth, that's his brother that moved to America's company that imported really crappy violins

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1 hour ago, Strad O Various Jr. said:

I don't see not have I seen any evidence EH Roth was associated with Scherl and Roth, that's his brother that moved to America's company that imported really crappy violins

EHR-Sch.thumb.jpg.b1d93ad79413a3ba433c353c5e70e2b3.jpg

:P :P :P :P :P , etc.

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7 hours ago, Strad O Various Jr. said:

That doesn't mean they were associated, just means they adjusted one of his violins

They were a great deal more than associated, actually.  Scherl & Roth was founded in the USA by Ernst Heinrich's 19-year-old son, Ernst Heinrich Roth II, in 1921, and served as the means by which Roth violins and bows found their way into the US to begin with.  While there has been some obfuscation about this (for instance, Conn-Selmer, the current holders of the Scherl & Roth trademark, portray things somewhat differently, *), you can now read all about it on the Roth website itself (by clicking on "History"), where E.H. Roth II is prominently featured in the first illustration.  :P  :lol:

Many thanks to @khunsakee, who seems to be a Roth scholar, for making me aware of the details by PM.  :)

 

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22 hours ago, Violadamore said:

They were a great deal more than associated, actually.  Scherl & Roth was founded in the USA by Ernst Heinrich's 19-year-old son, Ernst Heinrich Roth II, in 1921, and served as the means by which Roth violins and bows found their way into the US to begin with.  While there has been some obfuscation about this (for instance, Conn-Selmer, the current holders of the Scherl & Roth trademark, portray things somewhat differently, *), you can now read all about it on the Roth website itself (by clicking on "History"), where E.H. Roth II is prominently featured in the first illustration.  :P  :lol:

Many thanks to @khunsakee, who seems to be a Roth scholar, for making me aware of the details by PM.  :)

 

This is unmitigated bullshit.

Simson & Frey were the exclusive US distributors for Ernst Heinrich Roth (Sr.) instruments even as late as 1927.  (S&F was founded in 1910.) EHR II and Max Scherl were members of S&F "executive team" in 1927.  EHR was in business under various names in Markneukirchen in late 1800s.

To think EHR II came over and immediately founded Scherl & Roth in 1921 is pure fantasy.

https://www.amica.org/images/Literature/Smythe/Music_Trades_19270122.pdf

(p. 35)

If you do a trademark search you'll find S&F were the assignors of the S&R trademark.

Who you're getting your info from is obviously quite confused.

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Apparently Simson & Frey was renamed to Scherl & Roth in 1932 where they continued to be U.S. distributors for Roth violins. This is different than the history described on the current Roth website.

"After a few brief jobs in violin departments of other companies, Roth’s expertise led him to manage the Simson & Frey violin department, where his reputation grew throughout the United States and abroad. In 1932, upon the retirement of Herman Simsom, Roth teamed with Max Scherl to buy the Simson & Frey firm. They renamed it Scherl & Roth. In 1938, the company moved from New York to Cleveland, Ohio, an early hub of violin manufacturing in the U.S."

https://www.conn-selmer.com/en-us/our-brands/scherl-and-roth

 

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7 hours ago, Hempel said:

This is unmitigated bullshit.

Simson & Frey were the exclusive US distributors for Ernst Heinrich Roth (Sr.) instruments even as late as 1927.  (S&F was founded in 1910.) EHR II and Max Scherl were members of S&F "executive team" in 1927.  EHR was in business under various names in Markneukirchen in late 1800s.

To think EHR II came over and immediately founded Scherl & Roth in 1921 is pure fantasy.

https://www.amica.org/images/Literature/Smythe/Music_Trades_19270122.pdf

(p. 35)

If you do a trademark search you'll find S&F were the assignors of the S&R trademark.

Who you're getting your info from is obviously quite confused.

 

7 hours ago, GeorgeH said:

Apparently Simson & Frey was renamed to Scherl & Roth in 1932 where they continued to be U.S. distributors for Roth violins. This is different than the history described on the current Roth website.

"After a few brief jobs in violin departments of other companies, Roth’s expertise led him to manage the Simson & Frey violin department, where his reputation grew throughout the United States and abroad. In 1932, upon the retirement of Herman Simsom, Roth teamed with Max Scherl to buy the Simson & Frey firm. They renamed it Scherl & Roth. In 1938, the company moved from New York to Cleveland, Ohio, an early hub of violin manufacturing in the U.S."

https://www.conn-selmer.com/en-us/our-brands/scherl-and-roth

 

With the different versions floating around,  you have a choice of narratives.  My intuition is that none of them are totally accurate, given the agendas of those who post them, but the bottom line is that whatever importer EHR II became attached to in 1921 was importing Roth products to start with, continued to do so, and probably still does, under varying ownership and business names.  

I suspect that EHR sent his son over here under the terms of some arrangement with Simson & Frey that's now lost in the smog of time.  Who might have owned stock in what, what "back-channels" existed, and what money might have changed hands is similarly obscured.   Some would probably feel that it's none of our business.   :lol:  :)

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5 hours ago, Violadamore said:

With the different versions floating around,  you have a choice of narratives.  My intuition is that none of them are totally accurate, given the agendas of those who post them, but the bottom line is that whatever importer EHR II became attached to in 1921 was importing Roth products to start with, continued to do so, and probably still does, under varying ownership and business names.  

Exactly. The 1964 Scherl & Roth Catalog includes the full line of Roth violins, violas, cellos, and basses. 

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10 hours ago, Violadamore said:

 

With the different versions floating around,  you have a choice of narratives.  My intuition is that none of them are totally accurate, given the agendas of those who post them, but the bottom line is that whatever importer EHR II became attached to in 1921 was importing Roth products to start with, continued to do so, and probably still does, under varying ownership and business names.  

I suspect that EHR sent his son over here under the terms of some arrangement with Simson & Frey that's now lost in the smog of time.  Who might have owned stock in what, what "back-channels" existed, and what money might have changed hands is similarly obscured.   Some would probably feel that it's none of our business.   :lol:  :)

Even if you put aside the historical evidence, you think a greenhorn 19-year-old can just come over and immediately set up shop in a market that heavily based on relationships between distributors and shops?  You don't think EHR II had to establish relationships beforehand?

For what it's worth, in May 1924 EHR II, while he was visiting NYC, set up his "headquarters" at the offices of H. & A. Selmer (third column):

https://mtr.arcade-museum.com/MTR-1924-78-21/121/

This certainly leads more credence to the "narrative" presented by Conn-Selmer than Roth's. (Namely EHR II "worked" at few other places before he ended up at Simson & Frey.)

From the moderator: Hempel... I have edited your post.  Thank you for the information that remains, but I would appreciate it if you refrained from personal insults on the forum.  They amount to "flaming", which is against forum rules.

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4 hours ago, Hempel said:

For what it's worth, in May 1924 EHR II, while he was visiting NYC, set up his "headquarters" at the offices of H. & A. Selmer (third column):

https://mtr.arcade-museum.com/MTR-1924-78-21/121/

It's a one column-inch PR blurb sent to the magazine, not investigative journalism.  Probably even paid for.   :lol:

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6 hours ago, Hempel said:

Even if you put aside the historical evidence, you think a greenhorn 19-year-old can just come over and immediately set up shop in a market that heavily based on relationships between distributors and shops?  You don't think EHR II had to establish relationships beforehand?

More than likely he was received quite warmly as people knew he was the boss's son. :lol:

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On 7/29/2021 at 11:44 AM, GeorgeH said:

More than likely he was received quite warmly as people knew he was the boss's son. :lol:

Nobody in the USA ever heard of EHR prior to 1923. 

The "EHR Company" trademark was first registered in the US. in 5/1924. Why don't you take a guess which entity filed that trademark application?  (Hint: this was already revealed in one of the historical documents I cited, as well as the US trademark office.) 

Not to mention there were already other entrenched and established violin assembly "factories" and distributors in the US.

The moderator accused me of "flaming" and edited my post.  I'm going to re-iterate again there's is such a thing as objective truth based on the historical record, and nobody should take some elided "history" presented on some corporate web site at face value.  To suggest that there's a "choice of narrative" is inane.

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1 hour ago, Hempel said:

Nobody in the USA ever heard of EHR prior to 1923. 

The "EHR Company" trademark was first registered in the US. in 5/1924. Why don't you take a guess which entity filed that trademark application?  (Hint: this was already revealed in one of the historical documents I cited, as well as the US trademark office.) 

Not to mention there were already other entrenched and established violin assembly "factories" and distributors in the US.

The moderator accused me of "flaming" and edited my post.  I'm going to re-iterate again there's is such a thing as a objective truth based on the historical record, and nobody should take some elided "history" presented on some corporate web site at face value.  To suggest that there's a "choice of narrative" is inane.

You mean Juzek didn't really make all those violins?

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2 hours ago, Hempel said:

Nobody in the USA ever heard of EHR prior to 1923. 

The "EHR Company" trademark was first registered in the US. in 5/1924. Why don't you take a guess which entity filed that trademark application?  (Hint: this was already revealed in one of the historical documents I cited, as well as the US trademark office.) 

Not to mention there were already other entrenched and established violin assembly "factories" and distributors in the US.

The moderator accused me of "flaming" and edited my post.  I'm going to re-iterate again there's is such a thing as a objective truth based on the historical record, and nobody should take some elided "history" presented on some corporate web site at face value.  To suggest that there's a "choice of narrative" is inane.

The inanity here is not mine, nor does Hempel have a corner on the market, either. 

I am currently rummaging to find out, if possible, when and if EHR incorporated in New York.  It certainly looks like it from the data below:

EHR-TESS-Data.thumb.jpg.c39ff0daea37ac1d41d0480cdba95438.jpg

Just who did you think registered the EHR trademark?  It wasn't Selmer, their offices were at 119 West Forty-sixth Street.  FWIW, one wonders why Roth announced an address of convenience at Selmer's offices.  The more you examine this stuff, the murkier it gets, which is why there's a choice of narratives.  :huh: :lol:

BTW, Roth products had already been selling in the US for years, including brass instruments, which is where Selmer gets involved.  I'm rummaging on that, too.

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Violadamore said:

The inanity here is not mine, nor does Hempel have a corner on the market, either. 

I am currently rummaging to find out, if possible, when and if EHR incorporated in New York.  It certainly looks like it from the data below:

EHR-TESS-Data.thumb.jpg.c39ff0daea37ac1d41d0480cdba95438.jpg

Just who did you think registered the EHR trademark?  It wasn't Selmer, their offices were at 119 West Forty-sixth Street.  FWIW, one wonders why Roth announced an address of convenience at Selmer's offices.  The more you examine this stuff, the murkier it gets, which is why there's a choice of narratives.  :huh: :lol:

BTW, Roth products had already been selling in the US for years, including brass instruments, which is where Selmer gets involved.  I'm rummaging on that, too.

 

 

 

 

This is your "information bomb?"  Why don't you tell us something which we haven't already covered?

Which entity was at 19-24 E. 24th St. in NYC at the time of the trademark filing 5/1924?

Simson & Frey (third column):

https://mtr.arcade-museum.com/MTR-1923-76-1/39/

Now let's look up the Official Gazette of the US Patent Office:

https://books.google.com/books?id=5O5FSvK85XIC&pg=PR5#v=onepage&q&f=false

On that page, look for the entries:

- Roth, Ernst Heinrich Co;

- Scherl & Roth, Inc (Both of them one right after the other; notice the last one states Simson and Frey is the assignor of the trademark)

rothtm.png

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I think a book on the Roth family would indeed be interesting. I would buy a copy. 

however, one wonders if the story would be affected by the desires of the person telling it?

Meanwhile, I have helped-for free-many a student acquire worthwhile old Scherl & Roth cellos, the most recent a beautiful thing dating from 2003. Except for very entry level instruments, & Roth instruments need make no apologies.

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On 7/28/2021 at 5:23 PM, Hempel said:

This is unmitigated bullshit.

Simson & Frey were the exclusive US distributors for Ernst Heinrich Roth (Sr.) instruments even as late as 1927.  (S&F was founded in 1910.) EHR II and Max Scherl were members of S&F "executive team" in 1927.  EHR was in business under various names in Markneukirchen in late 1800s.

To think EHR II came over and immediately founded Scherl & Roth in 1921 is pure fantasy.

https://www.amica.org/images/Literature/Smythe/Music_Trades_19270122.pdf

(p. 35)

If you do a trademark search you'll find S&F were the assignors of the S&R trademark.

Who you're getting your info from is obviously quite confused.

First off, I'd like to apologize to @Violadamore, for supplying the links and quotes, to her. If I had enough Maestronet points and, been able to make more than 2 posts per day, perhaps the, obviously, RedBull induced, attack would have directly at me, the obvious target. I was only trying to ADD to the conversation. Apparently, some sort of very, very, raw nerve has been touched. Or, does Maestronet have a Fox, OANN or other equivalent outrage based, competitor forum some members are trying to audition, for?
Reading the condensed history, from the family Roth, could leave anyone to believe that the events of moving to America and the founding of S&R were closer in time than they were. However, pointing out that, one may have misconstrued information has never, in my experience, provoked such a vile and uncalled for response. Such is life.
Here is the, exact source (as I relayed to @Violadamore) of the, unmitigated bullshit, of my confusion:
 
"...Albert followed in his father`s footsteps as a violin-maker while Ernst Heinrich Roth II received a training in commercial life. In 1921 at the age of nineteen, her moved to America. Along with his friend Alban Scherl the company Roth and Scherl was founded. Thus Roth instruments and other products came on the North American market..."
 
"...Heinrich Roth was a seventh-generation violin maker who worked with his father, Ernst Heinrich Roth, and his brother, Albert, in the family shop in Markneukirchen, Germany. During the early 20th century, the family had built a reputation for making fine string instruments and sold many to visiting Americans. In 1922, Heinrich was persuaded by his American customers and friends to come to the United States, bringing the experience and reputation of Roth instruments with him..."
 
"...Ernst Heinrich Roth had two sons: Gustav Albert and Ernst Heinrich II. Albert Roth learnt the luthier trade from his father. Ernst Heinrich Roth II, on the other hand, received a training in commerce and in 1921 settled in the United States, where he founded a trading company, Scherl & Roth. It is through this company that many Roth instruments, bows and other merchandise came onto the North American market, where quite a number of them, from different periods and of very uneven quality, can be found to this day..."
 
"...These fine violins were so popular in America that Ernst Heinrich sent his son Ernst Heinrich II (1890-1961) to this country to represent the firm..." 
 
"...Ernst Heinrich Roth's son Ernst Heinrich Roth II emigrated to the US in 1921 and became one of the leading instrument dealers in North America with his company, Scherl & Roth. His brother Gustav Albert Roth stayed in Germany, learned the art of violin making and took over the family business after their father died in 1948..."  
 
 
Roth I's son, Ernst II, and Albert's son , Wilhelm, in front of portrait.
 
Ernst II (photo)                                                                                                        Albert (photo) 
 
                                                               Ernst I (painting)
 
Roth I's father (photo)                                                                                             ?? (photo) 
 
 
                                  Albert's son (standing)                Ernst II (standing)
 
 
WREHRFrontNeub.thumb.jpeg.ba49d8c8d8eb467acde88c64c046abae.jpeg
Edited by khunsakee
wrong pronoun used and part of private message was inadvertently copied.
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