Jump to content
Maestronet Forums

Recommended Posts

 

3 hours ago, Shelbow said:

The holes in the Rs are very big in the ops stamp

Regarding the size of the holes in the R's in the brand, I'd say the Roth brands I see can vary quite a bit.  Here are two photos of the brands in and Roth 1928 Amati reproduction and a 1926 Strad reproduction that I found in the Cozio Archive at Tarisio (the third photo being the brand in my violin yet again).  Both of these brands have the bigger holes in the R's and I'd say the brand in the first photo looks very similar to mine, including a smudge-mark in the center of the C in the serial number (assuming that is actually part of the brand and not a random stain it acquired sometime later).  Although I must admit, I'm not wild about the appearance of the serial number on this violin.  It does not look consistent with those in any of the other posted photos of Roth brands.

I guess the only way to be certain about authenticity is to shell out the 170 EU to Herr Roth and have them look it up and compare these photos to those in their archives.

76814_brand-Tarisio.jpg.d189b8fc79e86950b2bbf6a46508fee8.jpg

78587_brand-Tarisio.jpg.ff8d6277739a2cd19db799d20e531209.jpg

EH-Roth-Brand.thumb.jpg.7abcaac0b860573b2ff36ebae0f08be2.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • Replies 130
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

1 hour ago, KB_Smith said:

I guess the only way to be certain about authenticity is to shell out the 170 EU to Herr Roth and have them look it up and compare these photos to those in their archives.

The vendor should provide (pay for) the certificate. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, GeorgeH said:

The vendor should provide (pay for) the certificate. 

Exactly. If he's asking an extraordinary price he's owing to prove that the item is "as described".

Reg. the brand I found the most odd thing the different size and distances between the letters of the two lines, also that they are much more apart from each other than it is usually seen at the Roth brands. But who knows how many different stamps they had in their chest of drawers.

Hard to tell about the instrument by photos only, but the appearance of the varnish (especially at the more detailled scroll pictures) looks somehow sanded and irregular, so it seems at least probable that there was something done to it more or less recently. Can't remember having seen any Roth, neither from Markneukirchen nor Bubenreuth, looking this way.

Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

I find it touching, how many on the board, are keen to save Mr. Smith €100, but seem less eager to thwart his malinvestment of $9,500

 

8 minutes ago, match said:

In my understanding they were keen to save Mrs. or Mr. Smith 9600$.

Exactly. 

"It seems clear that you would be better off spending a further $1000 at Brobst to get a genuine example rather than trade in your current violin under the illusion that you're saving $1000."

Not much room for misunderstanding ...

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, martin swan said:

 

Exactly. 

"It seems clear that you would be better off spending a further $1000 at Brobst to get a genuine example rather than trade in your current violin under the illusion that you're saving $1000."

Not much room for misunderstanding ...

I didn't get the sense that the OP had his heart set on a $9,000 Roth, per se, but rather took a liking to this particular violin. Given that, could he spend the $100, take the results back to the vendor and negotiate a (much) better price on this one? Or do you think it's just total junk?

Link to post
Share on other sites

The comments are all helpful, and certainly have given me options I had not considered.  So I thank all for their input.  I am going to return this violin to the shop and look at others.  I like Alex's suggestion of spending the 170 Euros to have Roth authenticate (or confirm it is not a Roth) and then go from there.  And there are many other very good violins out there. 

And, by the way, 170 EU is a bit over $200 at today's exchange rate, not $100.  I don't see a $100 service available on Roth's web site.  For 65 EU (about $80), Roth will tell you the model number and year made, but I don't see why anyone would request that service since each instrument is clearly labeled with year made and model.  If the label were missing, it seems like it would take more time and effort searching the Roth archives to identify the instrument than it should take to authenticate a labeled instrument against the archive data.

Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, KB_Smith said:

For 65 EU (about $80), Roth will tell you the model number and year made, but I don't see why anyone would request that service since each instrument is clearly labeled with year made and model.  

We have already pointed out that this violin cannot be correctly labelled, that the serial number is dodgy and the brand may not be original.

Maybe if you send all your pictures to EH Roth they will tell you this in a way that is somehow more believable - the mere act of paying $80 will surely lend credence to their opinion.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
13 hours ago, KB_Smith said:

The comments are all helpful, and certainly have given me options I had not considered.  So I thank all for their input.  I am going to return this violin to the shop and look at others.  I like Alex's suggestion of spending the 170 Euros to have Roth authenticate (or confirm it is not a Roth) and then go from there.  And there are many other very good violins out there. 

And, by the way, 170 EU is a bit over $200 at today's exchange rate, not $100.  I don't see a $100 service available on Roth's web site.  For 65 EU (about $80), Roth will tell you the model number and year made, but I don't see why anyone would request that service since each instrument is clearly labeled with year made and model.  If the label were missing, it seems like it would take more time and effort searching the Roth archives to identify the instrument than it should take to authenticate a labeled instrument against the archive data.

for 65 EU plus bank transfer fee, about $100 total, Wilhelm Roth will tell you whether it is authentic, and what the serial number refers to in their records, the $170 EU is for a written certificate with the same info.

Link to post
Share on other sites

A 1930s Roth retailing for upwards of $10,000...I would look at other violins.  BTW, I own a wonderful 1925 IXR Roth, but I paid $1,400.  If I had $10k, I would look for a modern maker.   Just my 2 cents.

The brand new-like condition of the instrument makes me have doubts.  Mine aged well but looks like a violin that was actually played alot.

Lastly, I agree that the f-holes look more Guarneri, like mine, than Strad.  I am not a luthier though.

Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, violinnewb said:

but I paid $1,400. 

Everyone has some anecdote about how little they paid for something. But pre-war Roths are routinely getting 10K, even at auction, lots of them get sold with happy customers. The price the dealer is asking reflects market value. The question is whether or not it is actually pre-war Roth, not the price.

Link to post
Share on other sites

 

13 minutes ago, violinnewb said:

BTW, I own a wonderful 1925 IXR Roth, but I paid $1,400. 

Wow! You got quite a deal for a IXR for $1,400.  Sounds like a lucky find.  I am going to return this violin to the violin shop.  I now have my eye on an VIIIR selling for much less than this Strad 1700.

By the way, I sent my photos to EH Roth the other day.  I got an email reply this morning from Wilhelm Roth.  It sounds like he is saying this is an authentic instrument, although he did not say that exactly.  He said "Your pictures is [sic] ok...This instrument is from 1936... The style number for your instrument is 120-R..." and he offered to send me a written "Instrument Confirmation" for 170 EU.  Collectively, that implies to me that he is confirming this is an authentic EH Roth instrument. Otherwise, I would expect he would have simply told me this is not an EH Roth violin.  I called Roth today, but the very nice gentleman I spoke with could not speak much English and asked me to call back tomorrow when his son is in the shop.  I'll do that and report back.

Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, deans said:

The price the dealer is asking reflects market value. The question is whether or not it is actually pre-war Roth, not the price.

I am not one to dismiss that violin as not an authentic Roth. I agree the ffs look somewhat Guarneri-ish, but they don't look like Roth Guarneri ffs (see picture from a 1925 Roth IIR Guarneri "1734"). Also, the tradey hard-shiny varnish is not unusual at all in the 120-Rs (Model 1700s) of that period. Furthermore, although the 1924 catalog describes the varnish as "transparent brown," most of the ones I have seen have been red like the OP's.

The condition of the serial number causes me some pause, so I would certainly ask Mr. Roth about it. 

While Roths have been going up in value, the highest prices have been for the higher-end models made in the 1920's, not the 120-R models. I would suggest that $9k is a very high price for the OP's violin.

ffs.jpg

Link to post
Share on other sites

I built a new home in 2005.  We ordered cherry cabinets because I loved the rich red-umber color or the cherry cabinets we saw in the model home.  But when they installed the new cabinets, they looked very light - almost blonde.  I complained to the builder that they had installed the wrong cabinets.  He told me they take time to darken.  Sure enough, six months later they were much darker and within a year they had that deep red-umber color.  I wonder if violins also darken with time so the original "transparent brown" varnish appears much darker as the instrument ages?

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, deans said:

Everyone has some anecdote about how little they paid for something. But pre-war Roths are routinely getting 10K, even at auction, lots of them get sold with happy customers. The price the dealer is asking reflects market value. The question is whether or not it is actually pre-war Roth, not the price.

My point was that if the OP has a budget of upwards of $10,000, then why risk purchasing a questionable Roth when you can likely get a modern violin straight from the source with higher certainty that you are getting the real deal.

My purchase price reflects the minimal level of risk that I was willing to take.  Like you alluded, if the market value is around $10,000, then my $1,400 that I paid last year was worth every penny.  So...whether the OP's violin is an actual pre-war Roth when it relates to price, begs the question whether the OP is willing to take the risk.  Cost benefit analysis.

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, violinnewb said:

My point was that if the OP has a budget of upwards of $10,000, then why risk purchasing a questionable Roth when you can likely get a modern violin straight from the source with higher certainty that you are getting the real deal.

My purchase price reflects the minimal level of risk that I was willing to take.  Like you alluded, if the market value is around $10,000, then my $1,400 that I paid last year was worth every penny.  So...whether the OP's violin is an actual pre-war Roth when it relates to price, begs the question whether the OP is willing to take the risk.  Cost benefit analysis.

Personally, I have as little interest in Roths as I do in Juzeks, and consider them a very successfully marketed special case of the Vogtland trade fiddle.  The way that some people froth about them, you'd think they were some sort of Saxon Stradivarius, rather than just another competently made, stylistically homogenized, between-the-wars Markie, in the process of evolving into something fit to be spray-gunned by refugees in 1950's Mittenwald or Bubenreuth.  If anyone can post spectrum plots to challenge this assessment, I'd be happy to examine them, and reconsider. 

Heaven knows, for $10K, there's so much else to choose from, much of it fine by the usual definition of the trade.  :)

Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe I am a fool for expecting a "Stradivarius 1700" to look in some way like a Stradivarius.

I would be interested to know what EH Roth have to say about the serial number - a few clever people have access to these records, and even if the labelling and the serial number match up, do they actually belong in this violin?

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Violadamore said:

Personally, I have as little interest in Roths as I do in Juzeks, and consider them a very successfully marketed special case of the Vogtland trade fiddle.  The way that some people froth about them, you'd think they were some sort of Saxon Stradivarius, rather than just another competently made, stylistically homogenized, between-the-wars Markie, in the process of evolving into something fit to be spray-gunned by refugees in 1950's Mittenwald or Bubenreuth.  If anyone can post spectrum plots to challenge this assessment, I'd be happy to examine them, and reconsider. 

Heaven knows, for $10K, there's so much else to choose from, much of it fine by the usual definition of the trade.  :)

Right!  I never had interest in obtaining a Roth, until one came up on Craigslist.  I didn't know much about the maker.  I played on the instrument and thought that it was a fine sounding fiddle for $1,400.  Then, I did my homework, spoke to the fine people at Roth, got their thumbs up on authenticity, spoke with my luthier and got his thumbs up, and bought it.  To my violin's defense, once it was tuned up, new strings, new fittings, sound post adjustment, etc...it sounded fantastic!

But if I had $10,ooo to burn, I would try and find me a violin made by (possibly someone here) a modern luthier.  I have also seen and played on many, many, many fine and older violins in that price range.  So no.  I would not buy a Roth at retail.  Sorry. 

Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, violinnewb said:

But if I had $10,ooo to burn, I would try and find me a violin made by (possibly someone here) a modern luthier.  I have also seen and played on many, many, many fine and older violins in that price range.  So no.  I would not buy a Roth at retail.  Sorry. 

Actually I think $10K price range is no man's land in the violin market. I would recommend that people get a good student instrument in the 2-3K range and play that until they can save up 20-25K. Then you start getting into a strong position for professional modern makers. With that said, most people who have good Roths seem pretty happy, even if they paid retail.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.




×
×
  • Create New...