Jump to content
Maestronet Forums

Shaping the corners outline.


Il Virtuoso
 Share

Recommended Posts

I'm really enjoying the brilliant violin makers discussing how the problem arose and ways to address it.  I want to reiterate what someone else said, which is it's not the worst look if the corners of the ribs extend all the way to the edge.  Mainly I wanted to interject that the corners themselves don't necessarily have to be sculpted Stradivari style.

ornati.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 87
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Any consideration given to angle "x"?   From some observations I see x = 40 degrees for the lower bouts and about 35 degrees for the upper bouts. 

corner.jpg.f497f6b5726f71a88bcab65242cd4674.jpg

On another note when tracing the outline overhang with a washer the corners ended looking too long.  I like to reduce them about 2 mm. I draw the reduction curves by eye.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 minutes ago, catnip said:

Any consideration given to angle "x"?   From some observations I see x = 40 degrees for the lower bouts and about 35 degrees for the upper bouts. 

corner.jpg.f497f6b5726f71a88bcab65242cd4674.jpg

On another note when tracing the outline overhang with a washer the corners ended looking too long.  I like to reduce them about 2 mm. I draw the reduction curves by eye.

Wouldn't reducing the corners by two mm leave .5 mm overhang from the ribs. I am no expert at all, on the contrary I am a beginner but isn't this too little overhang? As far as I have read this has to be avoided.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, catnip said:

Here is a discussion initiated when I first started.

 

I don't think its exactly the same thing. I am not working from a poster and making a mould out of it. Instead I started from the pform and continued to build the violin on that. If I did the same thing on my violin it would leave a .5 mm overhang at the edge of the corner, which is too little even for a worn out corner let alone a "new" one. Based on what I saw on the thread ( which has some useful information if I ever decide that I have the skill to build a proper copy) this method only works if you reverse engineer from a strad poster.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/23/2021 at 11:18 PM, Nestorvass said:

I used the template for the p form which was made by Addie, the ribs are about a mm I doubt there is something wrong with the ribs because when I check it on the titian poster they fit nicely. So I am not really sure what the issue might be. Either way its too late to change the ribs right now I have glued and trimmed the linings and finished the corners as well. What could have gone wrong is i may have kept the ends of the cbouts a bit longer than what i should have before feathering their edge with a gouge. 

Was the Titian built on the P form? I don't have the Strad poster, but the Beare book gives the back length of the Titian as 352 mm, which is too small for the P form, I think.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Bodacious Cowboy said:

Was the Titian built on the P form? I don't have the Strad poster, but the Beare book gives the back length of the Titian as 352 mm, which is too small for the P form, I think.

The  Strad poster (coordinated by Sam Zygmuntowicz and based on CT scans) indicates a length of 353.3mm, which considering some wear and perhaps a not too wide edge overhang due to over rounding, plus a flattened block curve, can fit well on P 1705 form. The length of the ribs taken from the CT scan is approximately 348 mm which considering the flat blocks and perhaps a slight shrinkage could confirm the correspondence, along with other details such as the curves of corners and bouts. In any case, you can never be sure of these matches, but if it were up to me I would vote for the P form. The outline and F holes of the violin also gives me a P form feeling.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Davide Sora said:

The  Strad poster (coordinated by Sam Zygmuntowicz and based on CT scans) indicates a length of 353.3mm, which considering some wear and perhaps a not too wide edge overhang due to over rounding, plus a flattened block curve, can fit well on P 1705 form. The length of the ribs taken from the CT scan is approximately 348 mm which considering the flat blocks and perhaps a slight shrinkage could confirm the correspondence, along with other details such as the curves of corners and bouts. In any case, you can never be sure of these matches, but if it were up to me I would vote for the P form. The outline and F holes of the violin also gives me a P form feeling.

 

 

The “1705” is thought to be written by Count Cozio. The P form also matches the 1690 Tuscan well. Do we know of an earlier use of this form?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/29/2021 at 5:04 PM, Bodacious Cowboy said:

Was the Titian built on the P form? I don't have the Strad poster, but the Beare book gives the back length of the Titian as 352 mm, which is too small for the P form, I think.

Edited -- wrong image

 

 

 

Edited by Kevin Kelly
wrong image
Link to comment
Share on other sites

58 minutes ago, Kevin Kelly said:

Good question -

162460196_TitianMS44comp.thumb.png.c69ff608cbb892379297d716d90d2100.png

Here's the outline of MS 44 "P" form and a scan of the ribs of the Titian, as close as I could get them to the same scale.

If one wanted to find a mold in the museum in Cremona that fit the Titian,  then there are others that might be closer than MS 44. Here's MS 44 (red) compared to MS 1060 (labeled Bergonzi) (black)

 

Finally, here's MS 1060 compared to the Titian

Again, these are just from files I have on my computer. I've never measured any of these things myself, so take from it what you will. 

 

apologies to the O.P. for getting off topic

Are you sure you are showing Tiziano's ribs? The CT scan on The Strad poster is different, look at the shape of the bottom block and the heel. The Ct scan of the poster seems to fit better, this is an overlay with the P form, I've done it now very quickly and not very accurately, just to give an idea.

Tiziano ribs CT scan from The Strad poster :

2143750752_FormaPTizianorid.thumb.jpg.c603cb4e6e989db2a12d9db794c640be.jpg

 

Tiziano ribs on P form MS44 :

235549856_FormaPsufasceTiziano.thumb.jpg.2aee29a81abdc35fc4b9b34e9e973dc0.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Jim Bress said:

The “1705” is thought to be written by Count Cozio. The P form also matches the 1690 Tuscan well. Do we know of an earlier use of this form?

Yes, the date of 1705 is not reliable, and probably the form is earlier, it corresponds to the Tuscan 1690 and also to the Betts 1704 and the Sleeping beauty 1704 and also others prior to 1705.

However, there is another P form marked P (B) which is much older and worn, and I think the P "1705" is a remake of this previous form which is very similar. I think this type of outline is the one most used by Stradivari throughout his activity, or at least the greatest number of Stradivari violins I know are made with an outline that can be traced back to the P form to my eyes

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 1/30/2021 at 11:34 AM, Davide Sora said:

Are you sure you are showing Tiziano's ribs?

 

Of course you are right - thanks.

I should have noticed that was the wrong image. The Titian has a very distinctive shape. 

My wife has been trying to get us to have less caffeine in the morning, but I think I'll have to go back to my normal amount! 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.




×
×
  • Create New...