The Messiah

[ShadowStrad]

Has the issue been settled about whether the Messiah was made by Stradiavri or if it was possibly made by someone else?

Thanks

[Jeffrey Holmes]

16 hours ago, ShadowStrad said:

Has the issue been settled about whether the Messiah was made by Stradiavri or if it was possibly made by someone else?

Thanks

Is any good conspiracy theory ever really "settled"?   

The subject was discussed here thoroughly and often in the past. If you're interested in  reading those discussions I'd suggest performing a search on MN, or google the subject including "Maestronet".  One of our members, Peter Radcliff, did a rather extensive Dendo report on the fiddle's top.  I believe the video is available on his website, or facebook page.  Roger Hargrave, who examined the violin in his hands many times starting in the late '70s, has a letter published on his site (I believe it was printed in the Strad at one point). Look into the reliable reports that are available and make up your own mind.

Cheers!

[ShadowStrad]

2 hours ago, Jeffrey Holmes said:

Is any good conspiracy theory ever really "settled"?   

The subject was discussed here thoroughly and often in the past. If you're interested in  reading those discussions I'd suggest performing a search on MN, or google the subject including "Maestronet".  One of our members, Peter Radcliff, did a rather extensive Dendo report on the fiddle's top.  I believe the video is available on his website, or facebook page.  Roger Hargrave, who examined the violin in his hands many times starting in the late '70s, has a letter published on his site (I believe it was printed in the Strad at one point). Look into the reliable reports that are available and make up your own mind.

Cheers!

Jeffrey,

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction! 

[David Burgess]

19 hours ago, ShadowStrad said:

Has the issue been settled about whether the Messiah was made by Stradiavri or if it was possibly made by someone else?

Thanks

It is pretty much settled, for those who have been paying careful attention.

[Urban Luthier]

Scientifically the dendro report by @Ratcliffiddles noted above has to be the final word.  

For those who continue to doubt (unlikely anyone here) - I have two simple questions:

• Have you seen the Ashmolean Messiah?
• Have you see any of the Vuillaume's supposedly copied from the Messiah?

For those who have seen both the answers are simple: one looks like a fine instrument from the Strad workshop - the others look like Vuillames. 

[Don Noon]

Is there any known reason why the Messiah remained unsold in the shop for so many years, other than the patched pitch pit, lumpy red varnish, accidental ripple on the wing edge?  Probably sounded crappy. 

[Urban Luthier]

3 minutes ago, Don Noon said:

Is there any known reason why the Messiah remained unsold in the shop for so many years, other than the patched pitch pit, lumpy red varnish, accidental ripple on the wing edge?  Probably sounded crappy. 

Who really knows for sure. I like John Dilworth's speculation that "‘Messiah’ Stradivari was the first instrument completed by the young Giovanni Battista and kept by his family for sentimental reasons"

[Jim Bress]

I liked Greg Alf’s discussion at the most recent VSA. 

[Urban Luthier]

23 minutes ago, Don Noon said:

Is there any known reason why the Messiah remained unsold in the shop for so many years, other than the patched pitch pit, lumpy red varnish, accidental ripple on the wing edge?  Probably sounded crappy. 

Regarding the varnish - it clear from naked eye observation that the Messiah has been polished at some point in its history. 

Like many, I've stared at it for hours, it is truly a sight to behold. The entire Ashmolean collection is outstanding 

[glebert]

21 minutes ago, Don Noon said:

Is there any known reason why the Messiah remained unsold in the shop for so many years, other than the patched pitch pit, lumpy red varnish, accidental ripple on the wing edge?  Probably sounded crappy. 

As someone who isn't into violins (except that if they are made really big they become cellos) I really wasn't aware of the imperfections of the Messiah. Are these criticisms widely accepted? The way people talk about the Messiah I assumed it was perfect, or at least pretty darn close. 

[PhilipKT]

I tried to read the Hargrove article about the Messiah, but the PDF file only included the first page of his letter, and the second page must have contained all the juicy bits, so I don’t know what his own feeling was.

long ago, a colleague stayed at my house for a few days before we went to a camp in Vermont. He talked in his sleep and one night he woke me up talking in his sleep about Vuilluame: “ He was the master forger.”

I am still unclear on the dominant opinion on the subject, but knowing what we do about Vuiiluame’s skill, ambition, and character, it’s entirely possible he made it.

[Rue]

Now I'm confused...but since that's par for the course...

Are you saying Vuillaume made the Messiah - the one in the Ashmolean?  Then where is the original that he copied it from?

[deans]

Here's my post, just because a Messiah thread has to be long.

[Oded Kishony]

48 minutes ago, Don Noon said:

Is there any known reason why the Messiah remained unsold in the shop for so many years, other than the patched pitch pit, lumpy red varnish, accidental ripple on the wing edge?  Probably sounded crappy. 

Good job Don, you’ve managed to slander Stradivarius’  name with your snide, fact free, sneering innuendos. Congratulations 

 

[Violadamore]

6 minutes ago, Rue said:

Now I'm confused...but since that's par for the course...

Are you saying Vuillaume made the Messiah - the one in the Ashmolean?  Then where is the original that he copied it from?

I'm considering promoting a new theory that it's actually a fake produced by Katarina Guarneri, using material scavenged from Strad's dustbin.  I figure that should be good for a couple of volumes of bestselling questionable scholarship, a special on the History Channel sandwiched between other ridiculous conspiracy theories, and maybe a lecture tour.     

[jacobsaunders]

28 minutes ago, PhilipKT said:

I tried to read the Hargrove article about the Messiah, but the PDF file only included the first page of his letter, and the second page must have contained all the juicy bits, so I don’t know what his own feeling was.

long ago, a colleague stayed at my house for a few days before we went to a camp in Vermont. He talked in his sleep and one night he woke me up talking in his sleep about Vuilluame: “ He was the master forger.”

I am still unclear on the dominant opinion on the subject, but knowing what we do about Vuiiluame’s skill, ambition, and character, it’s entirely possible he made it.

Vuillaume also “made” a copy of Paganini's “Canone”. The (marketing) yarn was that Paganini couldn’t tell the difference when he came to fetch his fiddle. That copy now lives in the same glass case in the council house in Genua as the “Canone”, so you can tell from across the room for a fact, that Paganini must have had a great big white walking stick

[Rue]

24 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

...so you can tell from across the room for a fact, that Paganini must have had a great big white walking stick

Tsk.  Not nice.  Maybe he just forgot to insert his contacts that morning...

[Rue]

29 minutes ago, Violadamore said:

I'm considering promoting a new theory that it's actually a fake produced by Katarina Guarneri, using material scavenged from Strad's dustbin.  I figure that should be good for a couple of volumes of bestselling questionable scholarship, a special on the History Channel sandwiched between other ridiculous conspiracy theories, and maybe a lecture tour.     

I'm on board!  We need to rewrite women back into history. 

[PhilipKT]

24 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

Vuillaume also “made” a copy of Paganini's “Canone”. The (marketing) yarn was that Paganini couldn’t tell the difference when he came to fetch his fiddle. That copy now lives in the same glass case in the council house in Genua as the “Canone”, so you can tell from across the room for a fact, that Paganini must have had a great big white walking stick

Yes I read that in Silverman’s book. In that book, The DG is also misnamed as the “Canon” instead of the “Cannon” and I didn’t get the straight scoop until I came here.

Enjoyed the book anyway.

[Urban Luthier]

21 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

Vuillaume also “made” a copy of Paganini's “Canone”. The (marketing) yarn was that Paganini couldn’t tell the difference when he came to fetch his fiddle. That copy now lives in the same glass case in the council house in Genua as the “Canone”, so you can tell from across the room for a fact, that Paganini must have had a great big white walking stick

I really wish we had a 'like' button for posts here. Still laughing!!!

I've held a so called Vuillaume messiah copy in my hand. It looked like a Vuillaume. The Messiah looks like a violin from the strad workshop.

[PhilipKT]

1 minute ago, Rue said:

I'm on board!  We need to rewrite women back into history. 

Have you heard that Anna Magdalena really wrote Bach’s solo suites?

it’s true!!

 

or not...

[Rue]

1 minute ago, PhilipKT said:

Y...The DG is also misnamed as the “Canon” instead of the “Cannon” and I didn’t get the straight scoop until I came here.

...

Canone?

Canon, Cannon, Cannone, Canone? Which is right?  More than one? 

[Rue]

1 minute ago, PhilipKT said:

Have you heard that Anna Magdalena really wrote Bach’s solo suites?

it’s true!!

 

or not...

Well, of course THAT'S true...

[PhilipKT]

1 minute ago, Rue said:

Canone?

Canon, Cannon, Cannone, Canone? Which is right?  More than one? 

Well in the book Paganini declares,” I shall call it the ‘canon’ because it is a law unto itself.”

 But seems it’s REALLY called the “Cannon” because it’s very loud.

Funny that Silverman got that wrong.

 

[Rue]

Hmm...just read Wikipedia...might be best to agree on  Il Cannone