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Peg Taper Change


GeorgeH
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1 hour ago, Wood Butcher said:

I don't think there was a blanket cut off point George, and in some places the 1:20 was still standard in the 1900s.

Thank you, wood butcher.

I learned that the 1:20 Taper is sometimes referred to as the "French Taper" because it was the standard in Mirecourt production. I assume that there was a gradual transition to 1:30 in the factories at some point, but when?

Similarly, for the "cottage industry" and Mittenwald "Verleger” violins - I would have guessed that there was a gradual specification change - or maybe not.

This it also raises the question for me: Were 1:20 and 1:30 tapers both used prior to 1900? Or was it exclusively 1:20? (Again, there may be a different answer by region.)

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1 hour ago, GeorgeH said:

Thank you, wood butcher.

I learned that the 1:20 Taper is sometimes referred to as the "French Taper" because it was the standard in Mirecourt production. I assume that there was a gradual transition to 1:30 in the factories at some point, but when?

Similarly, for the "cottage industry" and Mittenwald "Verleger” violins - I would have guessed that there was a gradual specification change - or maybe not.

This it also raises the question for me: Were 1:20 and 1:30 tapers both used prior to 1900? Or was it exclusively 1:20? (Again, there may be a different answer by region.)

I'm not convinced that there was any such thing as a "standard" taper before the early 20th century. Most 19th C trade instruments I come across with original pegs have fairly random taper that's often steeper than 1:20. But maybe that's down to tinkering over the years. I don't know. 

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15 minutes ago, Bodacious Cowboy said:

I'm not convinced that there was any such thing as a "standard" taper before the early 20th century...

Right.  I imagine many makers would have used reamers made by local artisans (blacksmiths, mechanics, machinists. etc.), and these reamers would have had a random variety of tapers.

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5 hours ago, Bodacious Cowboy said:

I'm not convinced that there was any such thing as a "standard" taper before the early 20th century. Most 19th C trade instruments I come across with original pegs have fairly random taper that's often steeper than 1:20. But maybe that's down to tinkering over the years. I don't know. 

This seems realistic. From what I've seen, there are also steeper tapers around 1:15, and some a bit straighter at 1:25.

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11 hours ago, Brad Dorsey said:

My experience tells me that they did.  Whenever I work on JTL pegholes, I find that they are more steeply tapered than my reamers; i.e., the holes are farther from cylindrical.

Did they switch to 1:30 at some point?

At some point in the early 20th century, the French switched from measuring neck length starting from the ribs, and joined the rest of the world in measuring the neck length starting from the edge.

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1 hour ago, GeorgeH said:

Did they switch to 1:30 at some point?

At some point in the early 20th century, the French switched from measuring neck length starting from the ribs, and joined the rest of the world in measuring the neck length starting from the edge.

Brad might disagree, but I think JTLs were often less than 1:20, more like 1:15. 

And I've seen Mirecourt fiddles with this kind of taper up to mid-ish 20th C.

Never come across a 1:30 unless the pegs have been replaced.

I think the answer to your original Q is "no".

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29 minutes ago, sospiri said:

Should we try to keep the original pegs and taper if they are in good condition?

I think that 1:20 tapered pegs don't tune as easily or hold as well with modern high-tensioned strings compared to 1:30.

1 hour ago, Bodacious Cowboy said:

Never come across a 1:30 unless the pegs have been replaced.

I think the answer to your original Q is "no".

Do you know of any modern makers or manufacturers still using 1:20 (or less)?

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4 minutes ago, GeorgeH said:

I think that 1:20 tapered pegs don't tune as easily or hold as well with modern high-tensioned strings compared to 1:30.

Do you know of any modern makers or manufacturers still using 1:20 (or less)?

Not sure I'd agree with the first point, provided that the pegs fit well.

Know a few people who use 1:20 these days, especially for boxwood pegs.  I seem to recall someone telling me that Beare's use 1:20, but that might have been a fever dream. 

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43 minutes ago, GeorgeH said:

I think that 1:20 tapered pegs don't tune as easily or hold as well with modern high-tensioned strings compared to 1:30.

I think we all agree on that, but I still don't want to modernise a 100 year old instrument that has hardly been played. I want to keep the original pegs if they are still in good condition.

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59 minutes ago, sospiri said:

Thanks Bo that's what I want to do. 1:20 reamers are easy to find, but what about 1:20 shavers?

You can make your own if you have a reamer, or failing that I think there's a Herdim one.

Also Wittner do one with interchangeable taper sleeves: 1:20, 1:25 and 1:30 in various sizes. 

Or an adjustable taper one, although I've never found one that doesn't give me the heebeejeebees.

The Mark Jackson interchangeable taper shaver is legendary, but only a few were made, and getting an owner to part with one would be a task comparable with taking Charlton Heston's rifle.

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20 minutes ago, Bodacious Cowboy said:

You can make your own if you have a reamer, or failing that I think there's a Herdim one.

Also Wittner do one with interchangeable taper sleeves: 1:20, 1:25 and 1:30 in various sizes. 

Or an adjustable taper one, although I've never found one that doesn't give me the heebeejeebees.

The Mark Jackson interchangeable taper shaver is legendary, but only a few were made, and getting an owner to part with one would be a task comparable with taking Charlton Heston's rifle.

How do you make a shaver with a reamer?on lathe?  With a drill and a reamer with brass or bronze?

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35 minutes ago, sospiri said:

How do you make a shaver with a reamer?

Easy, if you have the reamer, a plane blade, a clamp, a block of wood, and half-decent woodworking skills and mechanical acumen.

I'm pretty sure Melvin has gone into a more detailed explanation in the past, than I am willing to do right now.

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