Vuillaume Copy Question


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Then they would be in the original Vuillaumes...:mellow:

Not sure what you are asking.

If the provenance of the violin in question has been documented, you can be fairly certain that the label is original and authentic.

Otherwise it's all a fantasy based on the whoever stuck in whatever label tickled their fancy...which apparently, happens in 98.254% of all violins...

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50 minutes ago, Mac1990 said:

So where are the originals with that label then? That is what confuses me. We have a published book that says there are original vuillaumes with that label. 

Where are they? They are 1/2 mile from my house sitting in Hillary Hahn's basement waiting for the moment that they are allowed to be played in public again, so she can quit her temp job as Martha Stewart impersonator

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Obviously you guys didn’t read the link I sent from Nicholas Sackmans book that has the label which is on my violin JB Vuillaume No 170 Rue Croix des petit champs 18XX. This information came from three sources according to the works cited. What I am saying is where are the original authentic vuillaumes with this label as stated in the book! 
 I’m not saying that mine is authentic I am saying why are there no authentic vuillaumes with this label if this author is confident enough to mention it in the first paragraph of his Vuillaume chapter with multiple sources dating back to 1889. Not sure how else I can explain myself.

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2 hours ago, Mac1990 said:

So where are the originals with that label then? That is what confuses me. We have a published book that says there are original vuillaumes with that label. 

I'm also not understanding what you're asking.

If you look carefully at the label in your violin and the label no. 3 from your original post you will see that they are not the same. Your label is an apocryphal label, a loose copy of the Vuillaume label but with different typesetting and punctuation. I don't see how a discussion of genuine Vuillaume labels and genuine Vuillaume violins/fiddles is in any way relevant.

 

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3 hours ago, _Alex said:

I'm trying to understand what you are advocating for here. The violin is not a Vuillaume....that's been settled, no? So what then? The violin is a copy, but the label itself is somehow authentic? At the risk of overstating the obvious....no, the original label from a priceless violin did not end up in your German made copy. Violins are made with fake labels....that's how it works. I suspect there were hundreds if not thousands made with this exact label.   

Just to be clear, this violin is NOT a copy of a Vuillaume, or anything else for that matter.

It is simply the usual generic workshop violin, with a spurious label inserted, which on that day was a Vuillaume one, cut from the typical book of facsimiles.

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1 hour ago, Wood Butcher said:

Just to be clear, this violin is NOT a copy of a Vuillaume, or anything else for that matter.

It is simply the usual generic workshop violin, with a spurious label inserted, which on that day was a Vuillaume one, cut from the typical book 

1 hour ago, martin swan said:

I'm also not understanding what you're asking.

If you look carefully at the label in your violin and the label no. 3 from your original post you will see that they are not the same. Your label is an apocryphal label, a loose copy of the Vuillaume label but with different typesetting and punctuation. I don't see how a discussion of genuine Vuillaume labels and genuine Vuillaume violins/fiddles is in any way relevant.

 

I’m not referring to the photo in my original post I’m referring to the label mentioned in sackman’s book. It seems nobody is actually clicking on that link and reading that Vuillaume brought copies he had made himself to a exhibition in Paris.65351124-0DAA-4171-837E-0D5F53FE2308.thumb.jpeg.e9138cf006330e752613c36dd84362b9.jpeg

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Yes.  We can read what you circled, but we don't understand what you don't understand.

Those copies he made - looked like the 'originals', but had his label in them.  He was not trying to pass them off as originals.

Those violins, with provenance, are among the ones that have gained popularity in recent years.

Your violin has nothing to do with any of that.  It was made in Germany and somewhere along the line someone stuck a Vuillaume label in it.  They could as easily have stuck an Ole Bull label in it...or their own shop label...etc.

In other words, your violin is totally generic and untraceable. 

And that's perfectly fine.  Enjoy it for what it is instead of worrying about what it clearly isn't.

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16 minutes ago, martin swan said:

That Vuillaume presented copies of fine Cremonese violins at the Paris exhibition of 1827 is well-known, but what does it have to do with your violin? 

It seems as though I am going in circles. Take my violin out of the picture all together.If these violins were labelled as such in 1827 when he attended the exhibition would they not be considered Authentic Vuillaumes. Would there not be authentic vuillaumes somewhere today with that style of label given that he presented copies of the great artists of the time and put his label inside of them as it says in the book. Anyways I will leave it to rest as you guys keep thinking I am trying to say my violin is one of those. I am simply asking why this particular label JB Vuillaume No 170 etc is mentioned in this book yet it’s not mentioned anywhere else on authentic vuillaumes. 

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4 hours ago, Mac1990 said:

So where are the originals with that label then? That is what confuses me. We have a published book that says there are original vuillaumes with that label. 

Here's one... This is the 8th of dozens of Vuillaumes in the Cozio archives on Tarisio, so I imagine there are others with the same label.

https://tarisio.com/cozio-archive/property/?ID=51688

JBV label Tarisio.jpg

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The Markneukirchen wholsalers, around the end of the 19th C. published octavo sheets of labels of all provenances, which one could buy, snip out and stick into anything. My colleague in the Musikverein in Vienna has a great heap of these in a dusty corner of his workshop (which goes back to Lemböck). Therefore it is unsurprising for all of us in the trade that all sorts of violins have spurious labels, since there are hundreds of thousands of violins with apocryphal labels in circulation. One becomes exasperated having to explain this to unregenerate individuals. I illustrated some here

 

 

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32 minutes ago, Mac1990 said:

.... Take my violin out of the picture all together.If these violins were labelled as such in 1827 when he attended the exhibition would they not be considered Authentic Vuillaumes. Would there not be authentic vuillaumes somewhere today with that style of label given that he presented copies of the great artists of the time and put his label inside of them as it says in the book. Anyways I will leave it to rest as you guys keep thinking I am trying to say my violin is one of those. I am simply asking why this particular label JB Vuillaume No 170 etc is mentioned in this book yet it’s not mentioned anywhere else on authentic vuillaumes. 

Yes.  Those violins ARE authentic Vuillaumes.  I'm sure there are quite a few out there.  

Why the authentic violins with the label you are interested in aren't mentioned elsewhere can only be answered by the authors of the books I suppose.

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1 hour ago, Mac1990 said:

It seems as though I am going in circles. Take my violin out of the picture all together.If these violins were labelled as such in 1827 when he attended the exhibition would they not be considered Authentic Vuillaumes. Would there not be authentic vuillaumes somewhere today with that style of label given that he presented copies of the great artists of the time and put his label inside of them as it says in the book. Anyways I will leave it to rest as you guys keep thinking I am trying to say my violin is one of those. I am simply asking why this particular label JB Vuillaume No 170 etc is mentioned in this book yet it’s not mentioned anywhere else on authentic vuillaumes. 

Not all books are created equal, and just because it's in a book doesn't make it right...

If you do some further research, you will find that it's not possible for violin No. 170 to be from 1874, and he was no longer even at that address in 1874.
The output of the workshop was huge, by that date the numbers were several thousand higher than No. 170.

We can therefore conclude that No. 170, and a date of 1874 is just nonsense.

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18 hours ago, Mac1990 said:

It seems as though I am going in circles. Take my violin out of the picture all together.If these violins were labelled as such in 1827 when he attended the exhibition would they not be considered Authentic Vuillaumes. Would there not be authentic vuillaumes somewhere today with that style of label given that he presented copies of the great artists of the time and put his label inside of them as it says in the book. Anyways I will leave it to rest as you guys keep thinking I am trying to say my violin is one of those. I am simply asking why this particular label JB Vuillaume No 170 etc is mentioned in this book yet it’s not mentioned anywhere else on authentic vuillaumes. 

I you read the paragraph in the book carefully, you will note that it says that he "presented his copy violins derived from ---- and were clearly labeled J. B. Vuillaume No 170, etc.". To me, this indicates that he had a whole line of instruments, probably loosely based on the three makers, that were ALL labeled the same. I also seriously doubt that they were made in his shops. They were probably made in other shops, and he stuck his label in them. That also indicates to me that after 1827, there were LOTS of these labels floating around, and there's no reason to doubt that these weren't included in the piles of Markneukirchen copy labels that were stuck in their instruments in the late 1800s, - early 1900s.

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23 hours ago, Mac1990 said:

Obviously you guys didn’t read the link I sent from Nicholas Sackmans book that has the label which is on my violin JB Vuillaume No 170 Rue Croix des petit champs 18XX. This information came from three sources according to the works cited. What I am saying is where are the original authentic vuillaumes with this label as stated in the book! 
 I’m not saying that mine is authentic I am saying why are there no authentic vuillaumes with this label if this author is confident enough to mention it in the first paragraph of his Vuillaume chapter with multiple sources dating back to 1889. Not sure how else I can explain myself.

The footnote states: 'Five Vuillaume labels are reproduced in Vidal (1889), Plate XXIX, opp. p. 320; a similar set of labels is reproduced in Millant, Plates 20-24, and another, very similar, set in Whistler and Doring p. 48.'   Maybe whoever made your fake label got their 'inspiration' from one of these sources?

Regarding the whereabouts of the violins, perhaps Mr Sackman based his research on previously published works? In which case, if they still exist, they could now be anywhere in the world, in use, in a collection or in storage. You could always try emailing Nicholas Sackman and see if he can help?  (There is an email address on the page where your original pdf came from).

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On 1/12/2021 at 5:12 PM, Mac1990 said:

So where are the originals with that label then? That is what confuses me. We have a published book that says there are original vuillaumes with that label. 

Here's a viola and it's in the Cité de la Musique in Paris. It even has a documented provenance. This is number 175.

969308587_vaJBVuillaume1829n175.thumb.jpg.5a27232003f7988c03b50713b4742085.jpg

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On 1/12/2021 at 11:12 AM, Mac1990 said:

Obviously you guys didn’t read the link I sent from Nicholas Sackmans book that has the label which is on my violin JB Vuillaume No 170 Rue Croix des petit champs 18XX. This information came from three sources according to the works cited. What I am saying is where are the original authentic vuillaumes with this label as stated in the book! 
 I’m not saying that mine is authentic I am saying why are there no authentic vuillaumes with this label if this author is confident enough to mention it in the first paragraph of his Vuillaume chapter with multiple sources dating back to 1889. Not sure how else I can explain myself.

I've only seen one legitimate Vuillaume and it was amazing.  

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On 1/12/2021 at 5:12 PM, Mac1990 said:

So where are the originals with that label then? That is what confuses me. We have a published book that says there are original vuillaumes with that label. 

In reference to the label text published by Mr. Sackman, instruments with that label, numbered 170 in Vuillaume's production series would amount to ONE INSTRUMENT and according to the numbering sequence from Roger & Max Millant would not have been made before 1829. Therefore Mr. Sackman is in error which would lead one to believe that there existed more than one instrument with the same number 170. Each instrument would have a different number in Vuillaume's production series and all would have numbers less than 84 in his production series to have been present in the 1827 Exhibition. A label with the number 170 in 1827 could not have existed.

Without any great difficulty I found five violins by J.B. Vuillaume with the label text we are speaking about. In addition to the above posted viola in the Cité de la Musique.

1825 n.32 Stradivari model aged but not antiqued

1827 n.52 Stradivari model not antiqued

1827 n.63 Amati model with double purfling and imitation Amati label signed and numbered internally

1827 n.67 Stradivari model aged

1830 n.193 Stradivari model not antiqued

Considering that these instruments are all at least 190 years old, what was once new may appear antiqued.

I have also found your label published in a book by Paul de Wit in Leipzig 1910 entitled Geigenzettel alter Meister vom 16. bis zur Mitte des 19. Jahrhunderts. I. Teil (Volume one) on plate 36 label n.41 and it is illustrated along with other labels used by Vuillaume. The quality of the reproduction is awful but you can see that it is numbered 170 with the date of 1829 which is correct according to Roger & Max Millant. It is however too late for the exhibition of 1827. The first scan has reduced the half-tone printing dots whereas the second scan is with the dots.

19537114_Vuillaumelabeln1701829-PauldeWittable46vol1.thumb.jpg.e839013d0e5b5bc1fc3f88d2edd97ee6.jpg1782725587_Vuillaumelabeln1701829-PauldeWittable46vol1half-toneprint.thumb.jpg.b02909abac5f72e09a160c142f4755ec.jpg

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2 hours ago, Bruce Carlson said:

I find it disappointing that after a serious attempt at explaining some aspects about his label query that Mac1990 is no longer interested.

The instruments with this type of label are out there but you have to look for them.

Just checking in after a couple of days. I appreciate your guys input on this. Answers some questions and contradictory statements made by Mr. Sackman. Was never trying to imply my violin is anything more than a 20th century German violin, albeit a powerful sounding one which I enjoy. It’s nice to have a discussion sometimes and challenge published work. 
 

Thanks again.

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  • 2 months later...
On 1/11/2021 at 6:03 AM, Bruce Carlson said:

I can't think of anyone prior to Vuillaume using a numbering system.

François Chanot's cornerless instruments are numbered. There's an example label at Tarisio - Cozio Archive - F Chanot That could be where Vuillaume got the habit, but I have no idea whether Chanot originated it.

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