Wrap-Around On Scroll Fluting

[Shunyata]

I am completely self taught without good professional examples to work from.  So I have a question about the outer f luting on the scroll...

How far under the scroll (where is joins the pegbox) does the fluting usually extend?

Below is a scroll that I have roughed out (cherry, for a fiddle).  The images show how far I can go with gouges but without buggering up the pegbox.  Is this acceptable?  If not, how do I do it?

[jacobsaunders]

How far the fluting goes into the throat differs depending on what school of violin making one wishes to aspire too. It is also a useful hint when one is trying to work out where an antique violin comes from. On Mittenwald violins for instance, the fluting goes right to the bitter end of the throat, on Markneukirchen ones, the fluting often finishes at about 6 o’clock, on cheaper ones, even earlier. From your pictures, I would describe yours as about 6 o’clock, quarter past perhaps. If you can’t get any further than that with a gouge, you should try using a knife. You would make life easier for yourself if the throat were more open (i.e. wider). A head doesn't need to go around with it's chin down on its chest

[Shunyata]

Thank you for your kind assistance.  Knife worked well.  Managed to add an extra 30 minutes of turn in.  So perhaps I am in Western France now?  :-)

Thank you for the advice about the throat.  I bought some Stradivarius Mediceo 1747 metal templates for the arching and neck - and the neck template has no throat as you have noted.  I have wondered whether this was an artifact of the metal cutting process rather than "actual" to the 1747 instrument.

On the other hand, the arching templates sound very nice and much better than flatter the arching I was using before.

[Wood Butcher]

7 minutes ago, Shunyata said:

I bought some Stradivarius Mediceo 1747 metal templates for the arching and neck

Are you sure? Stradivari was dead by 1737

[nathan slobodkin]

Shunyata,

When working under the throat you need to cut across the flute rather than along it. A knife works well but I find a chisel with a convex grind on the bevel can be used with the bevel down (towards the fluting) to cut across the flute right up to the throat. As Jacob said the tighter the throat the more difficult that will be.

[duane88]

I take a piece of plastic, much like I use for leveling cracks, and place it in the throat to help with the hitting of the pegbox walls.

+1 for the knife.

[Davide Sora]

52 minutes ago, Shunyata said:

Thank you for your kind assistance.  Knife worked well.  Managed to add an extra 30 minutes of turn in.  So perhaps I am in Western France now?  :-)

Thank you for the advice about the throat.  I bought some Stradivarius Mediceo 1747 metal templates for the arching and neck - and the neck template has no throat as you have noted.  I have wondered whether this was an artifact of the metal cutting process rather than "actual" to the 1747 instrument.

On the other hand, the arching templates sound very nice and much better than flatter the arching I was using before.

The Mediceo (Medici) is from 1716, not 1747 (perhaps the authors of the template have changed the date in order not to have copyright issues). The Mediceo throat is quite open, but often in the templates and during work it becomes narrower due to too much material left on the mark on both sides (pegbox and volute), a fairly common mistake. The back is fluted up to the end, as quite typical of Stradivari. I use knife and small flat gouge by cutting crosswise (see my video if you like). Difficult and tricky job, but it is one of the details that show the mastery of the luthier when you see a clean and accurate working.

 

[Shunyata]

This is fantastic, thank you! Based upon what you are showing, I think I need to try and fix the throat a bit, although there is a limit to what I can do at this point.

Also, patterns are dated 1727, not 1747.  My mistake.

[Davide Sora]

10 hours ago, Shunyata said:

Also, patterns are dated 1727, not 1747.  My mistake.

I am not aware of any 1727 instrument in the Medici collection, either.

Where do your templates come from?

[Shunyata]

Dictum Herdim.  See below, although I ordered through a violin supplier, not Amazon.

[Shunyata]

The templates have a manufacturer sticker that says Strad Mediceo.

[Nick Allen]

On 12/21/2020 at 10:21 AM, Shunyata said:

The templates have a manufacturer sticker that says Strad Mediceo.

You should be aware that commercial templates are seldom close to accurate to the real deal. You're better off studying photos and other reference materials. 

[jacobsaunders]

10 minutes ago, Nick Allen said:

You should be aware that commercial templates are seldom close to accurate to the real deal. You're better off studying photos and other reference materials. 

My father always advised his night school students, to have a real old violin on their bench for reference when making an (early) new one. It is miles better to try and make a Collin-Mezin, or even the infamous Jusek, that you can pick up and look at, than some crappy pictures or plans

[Davide Sora]

On 12/21/2020 at 4:21 PM, Shunyata said:

The templates have a manufacturer sticker that says Strad Mediceo.

Oddly, the date is correct here on Dictum site (1716) :

https://www.dictum.com/en/measuring-inspection-instruments-jbo/herdim-outline-templates-5-piece-set-violin-strad-mediceo-1716-739404

[Shunyata]

...and here you can see the 1727 Mediceo stamps on the templates I purchased!

[Wood Butcher]

Probably they are produced by a third party for Herdim, which could explain both the wrong date, and the wrong shapes

[Shunyata]

Ha!  I think I agree with Mr. Saunders... have the original in front of you while you work.

[Nick Allen]

11 hours ago, Shunyata said:

Ha!  I think I agree with Mr. Saunders... have the original in front of you while you work.

Yeah. Pretty soon us young guys will be lucky if we can get our hands on a JTL or Roth lol. With the rising prices of literally anything of value, and violins being treated as trading stock, all we'll have is templates given enough time. 

Although I'm being half-facetious. 

[Bill Yacey]

On 12/20/2020 at 4:06 PM, Wood Butcher said:

Are you sure? Stradivari was dead by 1737

It was from his belated era.