What is this line across the top of my viola called?

[Bill Yacey]

4 hours ago, Blank face said:

If you're referring to Haselfichte (Bear claw) it's different. These "Hazels" aren't caused by knots or branches but are specifications in the wood. The reason for this phenomena is discussed, maybe just genetic.

Example of Haselfichte (first especially at the bass side):

 

That top looks like it was literally clawed up; pretty rough looking. What instrument is this?

[Don Noon]

2 hours ago, David Burgess said:

OK, people are told lots of things, and there is a tendency to carry them forward, whether true or untrue.

I think there is a higher tendency to carry forward thngs that are more interesting.  "Reinforces certain frequencies and provides better resonance" is more memorable and fun to repeat than "probably doesn't do anything; nobody really knows,"  even though the latter is most likely the truth.

[Blank face]

27 minutes ago, Bill Yacey said:

That top looks like it was literally clawed up; pretty rough looking. What instrument is this?

Good question. It's more than twelve years gone now. The roughness is just an impression of the photo, caused by the "claws" and dying of the wooden ground, otherwise it was smooth and neatly made with a nice scroll (s.photo) and a nailed-on neck (beside that the purfling was painted on). I assumed it to be Austrian/Bohemian (was bought from there), but not Salzkammergut due to the nailed neck.

[Bruce Carlson]

1 hour ago, Rue said:

If the teacher didn't want to say anything bad - but wanted to say something "interesting", why did they feel a need to make up something silly?

If they wanted to address the wood grain they could have said "cool wood grain!".

BTW, what bad thing could there be? If they didn't like the instrument they can say they didn't like the instrument.

Not to discourage the student by losing faith in his instrument.

Sometimes, when you have to say something off the cuff it's easier to put your foot in your mouth. Who knows, perhaps he half believed it.

[nathan slobodkin]

6 hours ago, PhilipKT said:

To David’s point, There is absolutely nothing wrong with asking your teacher if she gets a commission from the sale of instruments. If she does, she is legally bound to say so,( she’s actually legally bound to say so before the transaction as well, but many and many a teacher forgets that bit) and if she does not she won’t be offended by the question.
I can’t really comment on the quality of the instrument, but it looks pretty generic to me. I actually think the line is attractive, rather like a birthmark.

Philip.

The laws regarding kickbacks are individual to states and countries. In the USA there are some states such as Colorado where I am told the practice is illegal whereas unfortunately in my home state of Maine there are no laws against it. Regardless of whether the practice is illegal since it is all done secretly there is no practical way to enforce the laws. I find your faith in  the teacher's honesty when asked if they accept kickbacks to be rather naive.

[HoGo]

No one mentioned it so far, but in circles where I'm most at home it is also called "knot shadow".

[Rue]

4 hours ago, Bruce Carlson said:

Not to discourage the student by losing faith in his instrument.

Sometimes, when you have to say something off the cuff it's easier to put your foot in your mouth. Who knows, perhaps he half believed it.

...so many feet! 

[______]

5 hours ago, martin swan said:

While agreeing that this is an irregularity in the spruce caused by proximity to a branch and not any kind of tone-enhancing or aesthetically pleasing figure, and while agreeing that there is probably no consequence one way or another for the tone, this is definitely a bad sign for me.

This kind of wood would be rejected by all but the most penny-pinching of makers, and is evidence that the entire instrument was finished before anyone applied any kind of quality control ie. that it's a factory instrument and not a particularly good one.

Well, I've met few real violin makers who pay attention to quality of their instruments yet use spruce with knots.

Look at example below. Gio Batta Morassi violin, 1980.

I'm sure I've seen photos of Strad violin with knots. I also know personally violin made by one of the most respected Prague XIX century makers with knot.

Doubtlessly they're not bad nor factory ones.

Regards

JM

 

[martin swan]

That's a completely different phenomenon, related to "haselfichte".

And what I was saying relates only to contemporary factory production like the OP instrument.

[PhilipKT]

1 hour ago, nathan slobodkin said:

Philip.

The laws regarding kickbacks are individual to states and countries. In the USA there are some states such as Colorado where I am told the practice is illegal whereas unfortunately in my home state of Maine there are no laws against it. Regardless of whether the practice is illegal since it is all done secretly there is no practical way to enforce the laws. I find your faith in  the teacher's honesty when asked if they accept kickbacks to be rather naive.

Whether it is illegal or not, it is unethical anywhere, and I think most teachers who engage in the practice would fuss and bluster in response to the question so that the truth would be obvious. 
I have one colleague, of whom I am actually quite fond, who defends the practice vociferously, As providing valuable insight on the half of his students, but never admits it to his students, which I have pointed out to him is rather disingenuous.

[WalterOB]

Here’s a branch line on a Nicolo Amati (lower treble corner).

[Wilano Cortignini]

18 hours ago, Tchaikovsky said:

Thanks Wilano! Do you happen to know any examples from the big names that I can google and take a look at?

For some reason I missed your reply from yesterday. I did not look hard enough, but here is a violin made by A.Stradivari's son, Omobono Stradivari, in c1727. See if you can spot the knot.

 

I am sure if you invest more time into searching, you can find even bigger names with a knot on the top. Many of these smaller knots usually hide quite deep down, and stay invisible until you have planed/gauged/chiseled the wood down to the plane where it stays. Some maker just go for it, while many more painstaking makers would simply look for a replacement.

[Wilano Cortignini]

7 hours ago, Walter O'Bannon said:

Here’s a branch line on a Nicolo Amati (lower treble corner).

Also just saw this. An excellent example as well. 

[Tchaikovsky]

@PhilipKT@David Burgess@nathan slobodkin@Rue

my teacher has a good heart. He doesn’t really like talking about money much. In fact, I originally thought this viola was going to be at least SGD$500 above my budget but it turned out to be SGD$300 below my budget. It just sounds very beautiful, and he made sure to set up an instrument that had potential to produce a bigger, warmer sound once I had “infused my soul” with it. I just wanted to see if there was anything to what he said about the marking, that’s all  he was probably led to believe it attributes to a better sound himself  

My viola is a handsome instrument with a unique marking, I guess!  

[Ganymede Piggot]

Mr. Tchaikovsky, nice to finally meet you.  There are a billion things that factor into what an instrument is like.  Probably more like literally infinite.  The horizontal thing you see goes into the mix and nobody can say how it factors in. The instrument is what it is.  If you like the viola, then think of what you see as a plus.  Your teacher is right that every instrument is an individual, some more apparently so than others.  I would think of it as a beautiful woman with a scar on her cheek from a knife fight.  Some guys might not like it, but I'm kinda into that sort of thing, myself...  Hot Mossad operative, like Ziva.  Mad, bad, and dangerous to know.

[Blank face]

11 hours ago, ______ said:

Well, I've met few real violin makers who pay attention to quality of their instruments yet use spruce with knots.

Look at example below. Gio Batta Morassi violin, 1980.

I'm sure I've seen photos of Strad violin with knots. I also know personally violin made by one of the most respected Prague XIX century makers with knot.

Doubtlessly they're not bad nor factory ones.

Regards

JM

 

Of course the irregularity of the different lines, forming curves etc. exclude that we are looking at knots or branches here. Similar to my examples (though they were reative simple instruments) the Haselfichte/Bear claw figure can cause interesting 3D effects like diagonal waves, crosses or other patterns, so that Bill for example assumed a rough or wavey surface by the photo though it was perfectly smooth. The name doesn't refer to the plant Hasel or hazel but to the German word "Hagel" = hail, the saying goes that people formerly assumed that the figure was caused when a tree was heavily hit by a hail storm deforming the grain - or a bear leaving deep scratches with it's claws.

[Bob K]

16 hours ago, martin swan said:

While agreeing that this is an irregularity in the spruce caused by proximity to a branch and not any kind of tone-enhancing or aesthetically pleasing figure, and while agreeing that there is probably no consequence one way or another for the tone, this is definitely a bad sign for me.

This kind of wood would be rejected by all but the most penny-pinching of makers, and is evidence that the entire instrument was finished before anyone applied any kind of quality control ie. that it's a factory instrument and not a particularly good one.

Another example: first half C20th basic Saxon trade fiddle.

[______]

14 hours ago, martin swan said:

That's a completely different phenomenon, related to "haselfichte".

And what I was saying relates only to contemporary factory production like the OP instrument.

Yes, I agree, maybe I just took it too seriously.

I just wanted to point that not every single instrument with visible "imperfections" is bad and such things can be found among top makers.

[Rue]

8 hours ago, Tchaikovsky said:

...My viola is a handsome instrument with a unique marking, I guess!  

It is!  Play it and enjoy it! 

[PhilipKT]

9 hours ago, Tchaikovsky said:

@PhilipKT@David Burgess@nathan slobodkin@Rue

my teacher has a good heart. He doesn’t really like talking about money much. In fact, I originally thought this viola was going to be at least SGD$500 above my budget but it turned out to be SGD$300 below my budget. It just sounds very beautiful, and he made sure to set up an instrument that had potential to produce a bigger, warmer sound once I had “infused my soul” with it. I just wanted to see if there was anything to what he said about the marking, that’s all  he was probably led to believe it attributes to a better sound himself  

My viola is a handsome instrument with a unique marking, I guess!  

I mentioned birthmarks In a previous comment, and I personally like such marks on an instrument. It helps make it uniquely yours. And any concerns you might have had have been allayed so full speed ahead! 

congrats.

now go practice your Hoffmeister!

:-)

[Tchaikovsky]

1 minute ago, PhilipKT said:

I mentioned birthmarks In a previous comment, and I personally like such marks on an instrument. It helps make it uniquely yours. And any concerns you might have had have been allayed so full speed ahead! 

congrats.

now go practice your Hoffmeister!

:-)

Indeed! I have a very unique birthmark myself in the shape of a cloud. “Imperfection” improves on the perfect sometimes! 

[theknowle]

About 5 years ago I attended a concert where Hannah Roberts played the Elgar cello concerto with the Manchester Camerata. She had been loaned a magnificent sounding Stradivari cello with a massive knot figure running most of the way across both halves of the sound board bottom bout. Search 'Hanna Roberts Stradivari cello' for pictures. Toni certainly wouldn't have skimped on wood....?

[Wood Butcher]

13 minutes ago, theknowle said:

Toni certainly wouldn't have skimped on wood....?

They certainly did in the later years of the workshop. The wood can seem pretty poor in comparison to what Guarneri was using at the same time.

[David Burgess]

On 11/30/2020 at 3:29 AM, Tchaikovsky said:

my teacher has a good heart. He doesn’t really like talking about money much. In fact, I originally thought this viola was going to be at least SGD$500 above my budget but it turned out to be SGD$300 below my budget. It just sounds very beautiful, and he made sure to set up an instrument that had potential to produce a bigger, warmer sound once I had “infused my soul” with it.

"Infusing one's soul" with anything or anyone turns out to be a very dicey proposition. Hope you end up OK in the long run.

[DiemViolins]

On 11/29/2020 at 8:44 AM, Tchaikovsky said:

Hi! I am new to this site.

I’ve been trying to find out what the line on my viola top plate is called. You can see it in the picture attached under the left f hole.

My teacher couldn’t recall what it is called, but he says that good instruments have unique things like this that reinforces certain frequencies and provides better resonance. I don’t know how true that is, but I’d still like to find out what this line is called. 

It is callled Bear Claw, also known as Hazelficte, is an asymmetric pattern found on all species of Spruce.  It presents itself as fine white lines that will run against the natural grain of the wood. The amount of Bear Claw on a piece of spruce can vary greatly, with some pieces exhibiting a lot while others show little to none.