Worn-off Violin Corners?

[outofnames]

I think mine got smacked...

[David Burgess]

47 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

Besides the odd scratch or dent, or lump smashed off, isn’t it ridiculous to suppose that some sort of magical friction (“wear”) randomly softened all the metre or so of total edgework all the way around evenly.

I don't recall having seen a Strad on which the edge was worn or softened all the way around evenly.

[jacobsaunders]

39 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

I don't recall having seen a Strad on which the edge was worn or softened all the way around evenly.

Perhaps this is more of a language misunderstanding. I would contend that “wear” is for instance on the treble side by the neck, where the left hand rubs going into high positions, or holding it whilst counting bars of rest, at the shoulder area near the chin rest, and the attrition part where the C bout is dangerously close to the moving bow, or on Celli the bottom right corner, which sometimes even turns blue from cellists wearing jeans. A violin edge doesn’t, apart from accidents, necessarily “wear” significantly anywhere else. The old masters edges were either sharp and clunky to start with, or nicely rounded off. It is a misconception to think that one may make the sharp straightly cut off ugly corners, so beloved of new makers, in the belief that they will automatically become nicely rounded off pretty corners over the next 300 years.

[David Burgess]

41 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

 It is a misconception to think that one may make the sharp straightly cut off ugly corners, so beloved of new makers, in the belief that they will automatically become nicely rounded off pretty corners over the next 300 years.

I agree that today's wear will manifest differently, than the wear of hundreds of years ago. Chinrests, shoulder rests, better cases, protective tape, less exposure to abrasives, and better care and maintenance in general. But I don't happen to be one who sees the reduced wear, or retained crispness as negatives. If I did, I'd round things off more to begin with.

[GeorgeH]

27 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

It is a misconception to think that one may make the sharp straightly cut off ugly corners, so beloved of new makers, in the belief that they will automatically become nicely rounded off pretty corners over the next 300 years.

2 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

Chinrests, shoulder rests, better cases, protective tape, less exposure to abrasives, and better care and maintenance in general.

In my opinion, better cases are going to be the big difference in preventing corner and edge wear in modern violins. Rattling around inside old wooden "coffin" cases for several centuries was not good for violin corners, edges, and the varnish on the back.

 

[Davide Sora]

3 hours ago, David Burgess said:

MVGA (Make Violinmaking Great Again)

I like this acronym, I want to join this association!!!

SEF (Sharp Edges Forever)

[jacobsaunders]

9 minutes ago, Davide Sora said:

I like this acronym, I want to join this association!!!

SEF (Sharp Edges Forever)

UBSC; ugly boring square corners. Taught at every violin-making school

[Shelbow]

The corners should have cute little unicorn horns 

[Davide Sora]

9 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

UBSC; ugly boring square corners. Taught at every violin-making school

Utterly Boring Scholar Care

[David Burgess]

1 hour ago, jacobsaunders said:

UBSC; ugly boring square corners. Taught at every violin-making school

VSRTORV:  (Violinmaking Schools Reviving The Art Of Real Violinmaking)

Yo, Jacob, your father's work was pretty crisp, or at least the little that I saw was. Is that why you are rebelling against that style? (I will readily confess to being an amateur psychologist)

[Matthias Lange]

What do you think about this post from Guy Harrison's bench thread? It seems that some wear around the edges/corners does happen. 

 

[J.DiLisio]

Just to provide a more extreme example of wear, I believe this is an Andea Amati that was posted a while back.
As an object I find this extremely inviting to touch.  It reminds me of a worn public sculpture or ancient staircase. 

 

 

[Wilano Cortignini]

18 hours ago, W.C. said:

While we are at it, from the pictures below, can we draw any strings to particular maker / school / region?

And interestingly, the two different violins, to my untrained eyes, seem to have very similar corner and edge work (correct me if wrong)? Is it possible that they are from the same maker (though based on different models, which you can tell from different f hole and shape)?

 

18 hours ago, W.C. said:

archive).

 

In my humble opinion, most likely not the same maker. I can see some similarities in the edge and corner work, but you must keep in mind that you can never ID or compare violins only by their corners. These corners may started off very differently, and after many years of changes such as wear from banging and scraping on old, unfitting cases, may end up being something quite similar. 

In your case, the two violins have very different varnish to begin with, and they look original to me. Next, if you look closer to the purfling, the second violin (the one on the right) has much better craftsmanship, which you can tell from the nicely inlaid bee sting at the end, which the first violin obviously lacks. The wood choice of the second violin is IMHO better than the first, I like the top as well as the back. The rib joint of the second looks nicely mitred, possibly an inside mold, whereas the first... I am not so sure (Looks even like a Bob).

So IMHO I like the second violin way better than the first. Its craftsmanship is nicer and it is probably older. The first one might even be a Bohemian workshop instrument, but that scroll is too nice... These are just only my personal opinions, and you would probably want to hear what @jacobsaunders, or perhaps @martin swan , or any experts have to say before coming to any conclusions  

 

Edit: After a closer look, I see that the corners are actually quite different, if you really want to approach it from a design POV. If you compare the scoop, the angle, and even the rough outline (use your imagination), the corner and edge work are quite different, to an extent that I wouldn't call it the same maker.

So if you really just look at the "rounded corners", this violin from your other post and the A. Amati from the above all seem to have very similar corners, and obviously they are not by the same maker.

 

 

Edited November 25, 2020 by Wilano Cortignini

[W.C.]

6 hours ago, J.DiLisio said:

 

Thanks for sharing! This is indeed very intriguing. It almost look like it was made this way, although we know it probably wasn't. It is also interesting to see that the back corners worn-off more than the front? (if you observe the left corners on the picture) I wonder what happened 

[Nick Allen]

7 hours ago, Matthias Lange said:

What do you think about this post from Guy Harrison's bench thread? It seems that some wear around the edges/corners does happen. 

 

I was just gonna cite this post. You beat me to it. 

[W.C.]

8 hours ago, Matthias Lange said:

What do you think about this post from Guy Harrison's bench thread? It seems that some wear around the edges/corners does happen. 

 

Honestly it looks beautiful. Very clever antiquing.

[Bill Yacey]

15 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

It is a misconception to think that one may make the sharp straightly cut off ugly corners, so beloved of new makers, in the belief that they will automatically become nicely rounded off pretty corners over the next 300 years.

A flap-wheel sanding head in a power drill will make short order of softening those corners.

[Wilano Cortignini]

17 hours ago, outofnames said:

I think mine got smacked...

Sure it did... The treble side corners look pretty beat-up.

[J.DiLisio]

Does it seem like the sharp corner was one of Stradivari's innovations?

[Nick Allen]

55 minutes ago, J.DiLisio said:

Does it seem like the sharp corner was one of Stradivari's innovations?

Probably not. 

[David Burgess]

1 hour ago, Nick Allen said:

Probably not. 

Agreed.

[outofnames]

15 hours ago, Wilano Cortignini said:

Sure it did... The treble side corners look pretty beat-up.

Well, it's been around awhile. 

[J.DiLisio]

7 hours ago, J.DiLisio said:

Does it seem like the sharp corner was one of Stradivari's innovations?

In answer to my own question the 1664 Andrea Guarneri viola is at least one good example of pre-strad instrument with more or less straight cut corners.
It actually looks pretty strad-like out of context.