Gand and Bernardel Violin


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I know nothing, but I'd like to see a proper shot of the front. To my eyes the pattern of dirt on the label looks convincingly similar to that on the wood. And the tag on the peg looks rather like one I recently took off a violin from amati.com.

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1 hour ago, matesic said:

To my eyes the pattern of dirt on the label looks convincingly similar to that on the wood. 

Perhaps the fake label is the same age as the violin. Authentic G&B labels don't have a black border so it's not even as if this is a genuine label put into a different violin

Doesn't it say 1898? Gand & Bernardel ceased trading in 1892 ... and the Second Empire ended in 1872.

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16 minutes ago, martin swan said:

Perhaps the fake label is the same age as the violin. Authentic G&B labels don't have a black border so it's not even as if this is a genuine label put into a different violin

Doesn't it say 1898? Gand & Bernardel ceased trading in 1892 ... and the Second Empire ended in 1872.

Its pretty indecipherable but it could be 1875.

G&B 1875.jpg

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19 minutes ago, martin swan said:

Well it's somewhat academic since the violin isn't a Gand & Bernardel, but G&B labels are always impeccably scripted ...

 

I agree, it does not look like a standard G&B, but were there earlier pre -G&B models that look different ?

 

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Martin some of the Gand & Bernardel  freres labels seem to have various black borders visible, look at the Tarisio articles about Lupot and his successors, the last number on the OP label is definitely a 5 and looks like the Freres label. That said its not like any violin from the G& B firm ive seen .

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7 minutes ago, fiddlecollector said:

Martin some of the Gand & Bernardel  freres labels seem to have various black borders visible, look at the Tarisio articles about Lupot and his successors, the last number on the OP label is definitely a 5 and looks like the Freres label. That said its not like any violin from the G& B firm ive seen .

I have found pretty convincing evidence that there was a G&B "first period" -1866 - 1870 when there violins looked different.

 

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14 minutes ago, fiddlecollector said:

Martin some of the Gand & Bernardel  freres labels seem to have various black borders visible, look at the Tarisio articles about Lupot and his successors, the last number on the OP label is definitely a 5 and looks like the Freres label. That said its not like any violin from the G& B firm ive seen .

I wasn't aware of that - good to know. I tried to find the article you mention on Cozio - do you have a link to it?

I still don't believe this is a genuine label. We've had several Gand & Bernardels and the handwritten numbers have always been legible and italic!

Here's a G&B Freres label from the second empire :

sr295gandbernardel-violin-label.thumb.jpg.5fea59961f201caa93a6fbf76cf15430.jpg

 

 

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The fiddle is quite obviously the usual, with a fake label. One should be wary of labels that have been darkened up with nut stain or coffee, and covered in dirt. A real, nearly 200 year old undisturbed label looks like the example below. Also the characteristic purfling with the narrow white should lead one to a certain conclusion.

Anton Fischer label.jpg

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12 minutes ago, Delabo said:

Maybe the information I have is incorrect and the violin they have with an identical label to the OP's is also fake ?

They believe that their violin represents a "Lupot Gand-Bernadel pattern".

Did such a model ever exist ?

Maybe you need to share your pretty convincing evidence?

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26 minutes ago, Delabo said:

Maybe the information I have is incorrect and the violin they have with an identical label to the OP's is also fake ?

They believe that their violin represents a "Lupot Gand-Bernadel pattern".

Did such a model ever exist ?

I see no reason to conceal the link since it's on a public website http://www.isabellesviolins.com/gandbernardel/?photo=SideLeft

That label is authentic, as is the violin, though it's in rather poor condition and has little of its original varnish. The number and the date are beautifully scripted and legible, and the label also doesn't have a black border.

It doesn't look anything like the OP violin (though for some reason we haven't seen the front of that one), but entirely like the 1866 example I posted.

 

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46 minutes ago, martin swan said:

I wasn't aware of that - good to know. I tried to find the article you mention on Cozio - do you have a link to it?

I still don't believe this is a genuine label. We've had several Gand & Bernardels and the handwritten numbers have always been legible and italic!

Here's a G&B Freres label from the second empire :

sr295gandbernardel-violin-label.thumb.jpg.5fea59961f201caa93a6fbf76cf15430.jpg

 

 

I dont believe its a genuine label either , just refering to the black border lines.

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1 hour ago, Delabo said:

I agree, it does not look like a standard G&B, but were there earlier pre -G&B models that look different ?

 

I'm really not sure how you can look at pictures of a genuine Gand & Bernardel violin, and still give the OP instrument any credence.
You need to stop looking at labels, and look at the instruments themselves and judge from this.

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9 minutes ago, Wood Butcher said:

I'm really not sure how you can look at pictures of a genuine Gand & Bernardel violins, and still give the OP instrument any credence.
You need to stop looking at labels, and look at the instruments themselves and judge from this.

You need to read all the other posts before you jump to conclusions. I agreed some way back that the OP violin does not look like a standard model  G&B.

I also agree with Jacob that its  a standard markie with a fake label.

As always, I am here to learn and increase my knowledge, and the question I am asking was if G&B ever made a radically different model from the standard one. And did they look more Lupot like  in appearance.

Have a look at this confirmed G&B and give your opinion on the model style ........

http://www.isabellesviolins.com/gandbernardel/

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6 hours ago, Delabo said:

You need to read all the other posts before you jump to conclusions. I agreed some way back that the OP violin does not look like a standard model  G&B.

Always dangerous when excuses need to be made in an ID (one of his early fiddles, a bad day, made when he was incarcerated, an experimental model, the label was lost and some kind hearted luthier put in a facsimile, etc.).  

It's probably best, especially when learning, to stick to straight forward and typical examples of a maker or makers... and get a sense of how they approached the task of making.  While understanding that makers may alter their trajectory slightly, they tend to evolve... they don't tend to depart from orbit.

In the case of the OPs fiddle, I simply can't find boxes that can be checked for Gand & Bernardel.... or another serious maker of that school... so for me, it's not one.

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13 hours ago, Jeffrey Holmes said:

In the case of the OPs fiddle, I simply can't find boxes that can be checked for Gand & Bernardel.... or another serious maker of that school... so for me, it's not one.

Please quote me in context.

I clearly said in the post you quoted from ...............................

@Delabo   ........      " I also agree with Jacob that its  a standard markie with a fake label."

 

 

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