bsharma8 Posted October 27, 2020 Report Share Posted October 27, 2020 Was at dealer and expressed interest in this violin. Can anyone tell me anything about it? Dealer sent me the pics. Luigi Bertelli 1950. Has a poplar back. Not sure how that affects value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sospiri Posted October 28, 2020 Report Share Posted October 28, 2020 20 hours ago, bsharma8 said: Has a poplar back. Not sure how that affects value. I don't know, but it's looks very pretty. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delabo Posted October 28, 2020 Report Share Posted October 28, 2020 21 hours ago, bsharma8 said: Was at dealer and expressed interest in this violin. Can anyone tell me anything about it? Dealer sent me the pics. Luigi Bertelli 1950. Has a poplar back. Not sure how that affects value. A quick google shows that not much is known about the maker, but I guess you already did that. And the problem with a little known maker is that there is not much to compare with, making it more difficult to decide if it is genuine. With regards to the poplar back people feel more comfortable with what they know, but the violin looks nice, and I guess it comes down to price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin swan Posted October 28, 2020 Report Share Posted October 28, 2020 2 hours ago, Delabo said: A quick google shows that not much is known about the maker, but I guess you already did that. A quick google won't tell you anything much about anything, and what it will tell you is not worth knowing ... Luigi Bertelli was a professional maker, and father to the rather better known Enzo Bertelli. The entry in Vannes included in the OP's picture tells you a good deal. I don't know this maker personally. While the edgework and the scroll (and the poplar back) look Italian, I find the f-holes pretty crude (particularly the lower tongues) and I'm disconcerted by the bump in the arching just outside the lower portion of the f-holes, which I would associate with a rapidly made trade instrument. But hey, a lot of Italian violins are pretty rubbish and still people must have them in preference to far better non-Italian instruments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dani Tsui Posted October 28, 2020 Report Share Posted October 28, 2020 Hi. I own a Luigi Bertelli ( grandfather), and it is exactly like the this. It has been certified by his grandson, whose name is also Luigi Bertelli ( the son of Enzo), and is one of the greatest vioin makers in Brazil. The only difference is that mine has a maple back. Varnish is characteristic. Dani Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delabo Posted October 28, 2020 Report Share Posted October 28, 2020 14 minutes ago, martin swan said: A quick google won't tell you anything much about anything, and what it will tell you is not worth knowing ... It did tell me to be cautious as there are violins out there with this label that are probably German according to this dealer............. https://www.jrjuddviolins.com/product/early-mid-20th-century-currently-out-on-trial/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin swan Posted October 28, 2020 Report Share Posted October 28, 2020 31 minutes ago, Dani Tsui said: Hi. I own a Luigi Bertelli ( grandfather), and it is exactly like the this. It has been certified by his grandson, whose name is also Luigi Bertelli ( the son of Enzo), and is one of the greatest vioin makers in Brazil. The only difference is that mine has a maple back. Varnish is characteristic. Dani Hi Dani! Do you have photos of your violin? It would be great to get a bit more familiar with this maker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacobsaunders Posted October 28, 2020 Report Share Posted October 28, 2020 1 hour ago, martin swan said: But hey, a lot of Italian violins are pretty rubbish and still people must have them in preference to far better non-Italian instruments. I too thought it looked a bit like a talented autodidact, who didn’t take (or get) much critisism, and thought if Segnor Bertelli had been called Grubmüller, and worked in Papenhaltenhausen on the Danube, it would be in an Amati auction with a starting price of ten quid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsharma8 Posted October 28, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2020 3 hours ago, Delabo said: A quick google shows that not much is known about the maker, but I guess you already did that. And the problem with a little known maker is that there is not much to compare with, making it more difficult to decide if it is genuine. With regards to the poplar back people feel more comfortable with what they know, but the violin looks nice, and I guess it comes down to price. Yeah not much info, price was exactly mid 4 figures, probably negotiable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsharma8 Posted October 28, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2020 1 hour ago, Dani Tsui said: Hi. I own a Luigi Bertelli ( grandfather), and it is exactly like the this. It has been certified by his grandson, whose name is also Luigi Bertelli ( the son of Enzo), and is one of the greatest vioin makers in Brazil. The only difference is that mine has a maple back. Varnish is characteristic. Dani Thanks Dani, I reached out to Luigi as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsharma8 Posted October 28, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2020 1 hour ago, martin swan said: A quick google won't tell you anything much about anything, and what it will tell you is not worth knowing ... Luigi Bertelli was a professional maker, and father to the rather better known Enzo Bertelli. The entry in Vannes included in the OP's picture tells you a good deal. I don't know this maker personally. While the edgework and the scroll (and the poplar back) look Italian, I find the f-holes pretty crude (particularly the lower tongues) and I'm disconcerted by the bump in the arching just outside the lower portion of the f-holes, which I would associate with a rapidly made trade instrument. But hey, a lot of Italian violins are pretty rubbish and still people must have them in preference to far better non-Italian instruments. Thanks Martin, my thought are if he won this competition in 1956, and this was made in 1950, mustve been one of his earlier tries at it. I think I'd pass, but was surprised to find 20th century italian at that price point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin swan Posted October 28, 2020 Report Share Posted October 28, 2020 Mid 4 figures negociable is not a Luigi Bertelli ... and in 1950 Luigi Bertelli had been making violins professionally for some time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsharma8 Posted October 28, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2020 Just now, martin swan said: Mid 4 figures negociable is not a Luigi Bertelli ... How do you mean? It should be more? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsharma8 Posted October 28, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2020 1 hour ago, Delabo said: It did tell me to be cautious as there are violins out there with this label that are probably German according to this dealer............. https://www.jrjuddviolins.com/product/early-mid-20th-century-currently-out-on-trial/ There have been fakes which have been confirmed by his grandson according to @MANFIO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin swan Posted October 28, 2020 Report Share Posted October 28, 2020 3 minutes ago, bsharma8 said: How do you mean? It should be more? An authentic Bertelli would surely be well over $20k at retail. Maybe this is your pot of gold ... or maybe not! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsharma8 Posted October 28, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2020 Just now, martin swan said: An authentic Bertelli would surely be over $20k. Maybe this is your pot of gold ... or maybe not! even with the imperfect F holes and arching? I figured the poplar back wouldve lowered the value since its not too favorable with many violinists. I believe the violin was part of an estate auction. I was quoted $5K. Now I am intrigued... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin swan Posted October 28, 2020 Report Share Posted October 28, 2020 2 minutes ago, bsharma8 said: even with the imperfect F holes and arching? I figured the poplar back wouldve lowered the value since its not too favorable with many violinists. I believe the violin was part of an estate auction. I was quoted $5K. Now I am intrigued... You're not really listening ... A poplar back would not be a factor in valuation but is this really the work of a mainstream professional maker? And what would a regular dealer be doing selling an authentic one for $5k when they could make 5 times that? I don't suppose it has any kind of certificate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsharma8 Posted October 28, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2020 2 minutes ago, martin swan said: You're not really listening ... A poplar back would not be a factor in valuation but is this really the work of a mainstream professional maker? And what would a regular dealer be doing selling an authentic one for $5k when they could make 5 times that? I don't suppose it has any kind of certificate? No certificate, dealer is probably one of the most qualified ppl I'd trust here so unless he actually doesn't know, its interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MANFIO Posted October 28, 2020 Report Share Posted October 28, 2020 I think that the location and model of the f holes are not orthodox. I don't think it is a Bertelli. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dani Tsui Posted October 28, 2020 Report Share Posted October 28, 2020 3 minutes ago, martin swan said: Hi Dani! Do you have photos of your violin? It would be great to get a bit more familiar with this maker. Hi Martin, Sure, but more likely tomorrow, as I am out of town today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MANFIO Posted October 28, 2020 Report Share Posted October 28, 2020 Here a Luigi Bertelli, dated 1949, just one year of difference, the f holes are "canonical", both in design and in position, the colour is the typical "arancione" of the Bertellis, there are no took marks in the back near the corners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin swan Posted October 28, 2020 Report Share Posted October 28, 2020 Luis, thanks for posting this. From the work of Enzo Bertelli I assumed that the OP violin was not authentic - your photos confirm this for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MANFIO Posted October 28, 2020 Report Share Posted October 28, 2020 3 hours ago, martin swan said: But hey, a lot of Italian violins are pretty rubbish and still people must have them in preference to far better non-Italian instruments. Amen.... some players are willing to pay for their prejudices... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsharma8 Posted October 28, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2020 Thanks all for your insights! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dani Tsui Posted October 29, 2020 Report Share Posted October 29, 2020 Just got home, and compared my violin to the OP’s, and came to the conclusion that my memory serves me no more. Although the varnish has been stripped, Luigi Bertelli certified it as his grandfather’s work, dated 1940. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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