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Andreas Preuss

Violin labeled George W. Dykes

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11 hours ago, Andreas Preuss said:

The outside mould construction method is the only method of building a violin where making the joint at the lower block a bit tricky. 

As such the outside mould allows to work very fast because all can be done in one shot with no interruption because working with all other methods glued parts have to dry before the next step can be done. However if doing all in one shot really rapidly it is only logic to leave a rather wide gap at the lower block to be filled with an ebony strip (or whatever) I have done it myself. As a result the strip lands only in the true center when everything is measured again. (BTW the ebony strip of the pictured violin as well is not in the center.)

Just by percentage I have seen this strip more often on instruments of makers who are known to build on the outside mould than on others. 

This doesn't mean that a violin wide wood strip on the lower block  was necessarily made on the outside mould. It is an indicator. 

I second Andreas' reasoning.  I research a maker who used outside moulds exclusively, and have seen a good number of his instruments with either a purfling strip or ebony piece at this location.  Also, many of his instruments have similar purfling or ebony "finishes" at the corners- I assume for the same reason suggested by andreas.

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3 hours ago, Ron1 said:

I second Andreas' reasoning.  I research a maker who used outside moulds exclusively, and have seen a good number of his instruments with either a purfling strip or ebony piece at this location.  Also, many of his instruments have similar purfling or ebony "finishes" at the corners- I assume for the same reason suggested by andreas.

nonsense

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12 hours ago, martin swan said:

I don't think the explanation holds water if you will forgive the pun.

Theoretically a highly flamed rib should show a bit more longitudinal shrinkage than a piece of unfigured wood, but introducing moisture and then letting it evaporate back to EMC is more likely to result in a realignment of parts than in an actual change in length.

 

:rolleyes:

Martin, I like your humor. (Obviously I am in a good mood today.)

However, try it yourself. Your theory fails.

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13 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

My father used an outside mould to build all of his violins/violas. The joint of the two bottom rib halves was always perfect (he would have chucked it away otherwise). A one piece bottom rib would exclude the use of an outside mould, but otherwiseI I see no “indication”

 

Jacob, with all respect to your fathers work, now you are talking nonsense. 

You can't take the execution of one maker as a rule for everybody working with the same method.

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43 minutes ago, Andreas Preuss said:

Jacob, with all respect to your fathers work, now you are talking nonsense. 

You can't take the execution of one maker as a rule for everybody working with the same method.

As a teenager, I first learnt to make fiddles using the outside mould. The joint by the end pin is not a challenge, or any reason to insert an ebony strip. Ergo, you are talking nonsense

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2 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

As a teenager, I first learnt to make fiddles using the outside mould. The joint by the end pin is not a challenge, or any reason to insert an ebony strip. Ergo, you are talking nonsense

I never said 'it is impossible to make a perfect joint on the outside mould'. 

You are making the same logical mistake. You generalize from your experience to everyone else. Logical nonsense, look at facts or OTHER makers instruments who used this method. 

I suggest you study some modern Italian instruments by makers who built on the exterior mould. 

 

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17 minutes ago, Andreas Preuss said:

I never said 'it is impossible to make a perfect joint on the outside mould'. 

You are making the same logical mistake. You generalize from your experience to everyone else. Logical nonsense, look at facts or OTHER makers instruments who used this method. 

I suggest you study some modern Italian instruments by makers who built on the exterior mould. 

 

To make the bottom joint using an outside mould, you need a pencil, a square, and a sharp knife. If you are inept enough to screw that up, you are just as pre-destined to make a dogs dinner of that joint using an inside mould, or anything else. Therefore, to return to the start of this argument, an ebony inset doesn’t indicate an outside mould any more than any other method

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15 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

an ebony inset doesn’t indicate an outside mould any more than any other method

So what your opinion for its insertion on new instruments ?

Decorative ?

To cover sloppy workmanship ?

To help resist downward pressure from the saddle ?

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1 minute ago, Delabo said:

So what your opinion for its insertion on new instruments ?

Decorative ?

To cover sloppy workmanship ?

To help resist downward pressure from the saddle ?

In some cases it's decorative or a kind of tradition, in some cases it's a corrective for some inadequate method, in some cases it's a repair to do with the ribs having been repositioned, but I can't think of any case where it would be trying to support the saddle. The bottom block would do all of that work, either on its own or through its reinforcing effect on the ribs.

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1 minute ago, martin swan said:

but I can't think of any case where it would be trying to support the saddle.

Yes, now you mention it, there is a dirty great corner block holding the rib in place.

I was sort of thinking of inner mold ribs that can sometimes develop a curve as they dry and the ebony strip somehow counter acting the bending force.

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10 minutes ago, Delabo said:

Yes, now you mention it, there is a dirty great corner block holding the rib in place.

I was sort of thinking of inner mold ribs that can sometimes develop a curve as they dry and the ebony strip somehow counter acting the bending force.

As Martin says, the bottom block does the work: The tail gut, pulled by the tension of the strings, pulls upwards on the endpin and the forces are transferred into, and via the saddle on to, the bottom block and the end of the table. (Longitudinally, the table is in compression, the forces pass through the arching to counteract the downward pressure from the strings through the bridge).  if anything. and depending on the shaping of the saddle, there is probably a slight rotational turning force (moment) onto the top of the bottom block on the inner side away from the ribs.

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56 minutes ago, Delabo said:

So what your opinion for its insertion on new instruments ?

Decorative ?

To cover sloppy workmanship ?

To help resist downward pressure from the saddle ?

Perhaps some people think it looks sexy. If so, you can insert a lump of ebony, or a bit of purflling whichever rib building technique you use.  I could, as  mentioned, imagine that it has a reason if your rib wood is a few mm short, otherwise it reminds me of some Hungarian gypsy workshops

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So, in the abscence of any structural reason for the ebony strip, i have decided that it is purely decorative.

Old Italian violins with one piece ribs that needed shortening would sometimes have purfling inserted as a repair, so new violin makers took to copying the look.

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5 hours ago, Andreas Preuss said:

:rolleyes:

Martin, I like your humor. (Obviously I am in a good mood today.)

However, try it yourself. Your theory fails.

There is no de facto reason why an outside mold construction method would lead to a gap between the two bottom ribs, otherwise all Mirecourt violins would have this problem, and all modern commercial violins. Of the 150 or so instruments we commissioned and sold under our own brand, none had even the slightest gap, yet all were built on an outside mold.

So if there is a problem that you see regularly, it's to do with something other than the use of an outside mold, and might just as easily beset a violin made on an inside mold but using the same finishing techniques.

Reading back over the thread you are advancing two different propositions - the first that outside mold is quicker and easier if one is inaccurate about the bottom rib joint, the second that a good rib joint will open if left unvarnished for a period of time due to some kind of localised shrinkage.

If I knew which proposition you were going to adhere to most stubbornly, I would know which one to try to dismantle :lol:

 

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I have never worked on an exterior mold but can say that for anyone working quickly with any method it is possible that ribs slide or a joint looks good dry but less good after gluing. Cutting a groove and gluing in a strip of purfling takes perhaps 5 minutes and  unless it is really badly done looks just fine. Like wise if through some looseness in outline shape the perfect centering of the end pin does not fall perfectly on the rib joint adding a purfling gives you a chance to line things up and do a little decorating at the same time.

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@martin swan

those were two different topics brought up by two different persons.

Once again, if you look at all violins which have a large inlay at the bottom rib, you find just by percentage more often violins made on an exterior mould.

The other thing is

the joint at the bottom block can open no matter how meticiulous you joined it (regardless the construction method, exterior or interior without  or whatever mould) which is basically a contradiction to the figures of shrinkage you find in the literature. 

Dont expect me to answer again. (I am not in good mood any more.)

 

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3 minutes ago, Andreas Preuss said:

@martin swan

 

Once again, if you look at all violins which have a large inlay at the bottom rib, you find just by percentage more often violins made on an exterior mould.

 

 

Your hypothosis, based on nothing

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On 10/24/2020 at 9:13 AM, sospiri said:

If they have already shrunk across the grain before they are fitted, they might still shrink along the grain. 

 

No. This isn’t really the way that shrinkage, or natural movement of the wood happens. It’s never one way first, then another direction later.

 

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Hi Andreas, 

I’ve not experienced this personally, but I think the humidity levels in our respective countries may be very different.

Hope your mood got better over the weekend :)

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On 10/26/2020 at 1:06 PM, Dave Slight said:

No. This isn’t really the way that shrinkage, or natural movement of the wood happens. It’s never one way first, then another direction later.

 

Not even a tiny bit more longitudinal shrinkage? So is it mostly in the belly and back, causing the ribs to bulge? Does it vary a lot in old instruments?

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18 minutes ago, sospiri said:

Not even a tiny bit more longitudinal shrinkage? So is it mostly in the belly and back, causing the ribs to bulge? Does it vary a lot in old instruments?

It is pointless, trying to generalise. A customer of mine, has a Grancino Cello from 1701, which needs treatment for a rib bulge by the bottom block, so that certainly has nothing to do with cheap Chinese wood.

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Just now, jacobsaunders said:

It is pointless, trying to generalise. A customer of mine, has a Grancino Cello from 1701, which needs treatment for a rib bulge by the bottom block, so that certainly has nothing to do with cheap Chinese wood.

Yes I suppose you're right, it's pointless to generalise. Even about "cheap Chinese wood".

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28 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

It is pointless, trying to generalise. A customer of mine, has a Grancino Cello from 1701, which needs treatment for a rib bulge by the bottom block, so that certainly has nothing to do with cheap Chinese wood.

Is the top or back still shrinking after 319 years ?

Or has something else caused it  in your opinion ?

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39 minutes ago, sospiri said:

Yes I suppose you're right, it's pointless to generalise. Even about "cheap Chinese wood".

Yes, pointless generalising about that too. Last time I visited the Gleisner wood yard in Bubebreuth, Herr Gleisner was busy filling a shipping container (a big one) with violin wood “for China”

12 minutes ago, Delabo said:

Is the top or back still shrinking after 319 years ?

Or has something else caused it  in your opinion ?

I have no idea. The bulge in the ribs is at the back/ribs join. My point was that wood still “moves” after 319 years

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