Can you turn a trade violin into a pro-quality instrument?

[martin swan]

5 hours ago, sospiri said:

A

What the heck are you blathering on about?

If you take the time to read, Jacob is saying that the essential physical properties of the wood are not as important as most people make out.

Good arching and appropriate thicknessing can make a great sounding instrument out of most kinds of wood, and we find fantastic historic instruments made out of wood which all contemporary makers without exception would reject immediately.

I think you make yourself look a bit stupid accusing Jacob of "blathering on" - you clearly have very little experience in this area and he has a great deal. Why not just try to understand rather than swagger?

[PhilipKT]

5 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

Spelling mistake, sorry - Risible

In the US, we say “laughable” and no one needs to look it up.

hahahaha but it worked. I’m laughing....

[David Burgess]

15 minutes ago, Wood Butcher said:

At least the steel was good enough to recycle.  American cars (automobiles) would have long since rusted away.

American and German cars rust away at roughly the same overall rate.

I am a fairly knowledgeable car freak. How 'bout you? Is it possible that you have been seduced by false claims of superiority?

[PhilipKT]

2 hours ago, stringcheese said:

I cannot agree with the above statement. China is today what Germany was 100 years ago in violins, building everything from stuff I wouldn't burn in the wood stove to first rate instruments. Probably larger numbers of the former than of the latter, but the same was true 100 years ago. It's just that many of the worst old ones have been binned by now (not all of them though, we see a few here from time to time). A decently made student violin that has been set up properly can be just fine regardless of when or where it was made. The goal at first is to get an instrument that you will outgrow for the right reasons, not the wrong ones. The lifetime instrument can come on the second round.

When I was a little boy, the worst instruments I saw were either knilling Or Chinese. Just awful things with plywood bodies and drawn on purfling and sprayed on varnish that looks like it was used for coloring countertops.

but that was a long long time ago, and the Chinese have a knack for doing things cheaply and they don’t let patent or copyright issues stand in their way. I have never played a bad Jay Haide, And I’ve played many outstanding ones. I prefer the sound of the old Markies, But there’s a Lotta good Chinese fiddles out there these days

[rudall]

6 minutes ago, PhilipKT said:

and the Chinese have a knack for doing things cheaply and they don’t let patent or copyright issues stand in their way.

And that’s a good reason to support the Chinese economy?

[David Burgess]

16 minutes ago, PhilipKT said:

When I was a little boy, the worst instruments I saw were either knilling Or Chinese. Just awful things with plywood bodies and drawn on purfling and sprayed on varnish that looks like it was used for coloring countertops.

but that was a long long time ago, and the Chinese have a knack for doing things cheaply and they don’t let patent or copyright issues stand in their way. I have never played a bad Jay Haide, And I’ve played many outstanding ones. I prefer the sound of the old Markies, But there’s a Lotta good Chinese fiddles out there these days

I don't recall having heard or played a Jay Haide which I considered to be "outstanding", but they can be really good bang-for-the-buck.

[rudall]

16 minutes ago, PhilipKT said:

In the US, we say “laughable” and no one needs to look it up.

Not just in the US. Anywhere where people have a limited vocabulary. 

[Wood Butcher]

6 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

American and German cars rust away at roughly the same overall rate.

I am a fairly knowledgeable car freak. How 'bout you? Is it possible that you have been seduced by false claims of superiority?

I forgot about the American fibreglass cars, perhaps these are longer lasting and can be recycled.

[David Burgess]

1 minute ago, rudall said:

Not just in the US. Anywhere where people have a limited vocabulary. 

Oh, are you aspiring to be a wannabe "cork sniffer"? Like someone who requires pages of text to communicate what could have been more skillfully communicated in two sentences?

[rudall]

Why would having an extensive vocabulary make one overly prolix? Quite the opposite, surely. I have spent the past 40 years of my professional life editing and rewriting texts to make them clear, succinct and readable. I do not aspire to anything as far as the English language is concerned. 

[David Burgess]

13 minutes ago, Wood Butcher said:

I forgot about the American fibreglass cars, perhaps these are longer lasting and can be recycled.

It is true that the composite body shells of some cars are immune to rust. But unless that is carried out thoughout the car, the remaining steel parts fail. I am not aware of any composite skinned or framed car, which has no steel parts.

[Bill Merkel]

40 minutes ago, David Burgess said:

American and German cars rust away at roughly the same overall rate.

Only Porsche mastered rusting plastic.  Germany FTW!

[sospiri]

50 minutes ago, martin swan said:

If you take the time to read, Jacob is saying that the essential physical properties of the wood are not as important as most people make out.

Good arching and appropriate thicknessing can make a great sounding instrument out of most kinds of wood, and we find fantastic historic instruments made out of wood which all contemporary makers without exception would reject immediately.

I think you make yourself look a bit stupid accusing Jacob of "blathering on" - you clearly have very little experience in this area and he has a great deal. Why not just try to understand rather than swagger?

Oh please. Don't feel sorry for him. That will only make him worse.

[David Burgess]

15 minutes ago, rudall said:

Why would having an extensive vocabulary make one overly prolix?

Perhaps bragging rights, as an attempt to substitute for useful content?

The unnecessarily long-winded and complex oratorical style does seem to be going out of fashion

[Bill Merkel]

^Since approximately two score and eleven years ago.

[GeorgeH]

1 hour ago, martin swan said:

If you take the time to read, Jacob is saying that the essential physical properties of the wood are not as important as most people make out.

I am glad that you explained it to me. 

[sospiri]

8 minutes ago, GeorgeH said:

I am glad that you explained it to me. 

The essential properties of wood aren't really essential. Now I get it.

[Wood Butcher]

7 hours ago, sospiri said:

So how many spruce bolts have you split?

For the log burner lots. For violin and viola some. Never split a piece big enough for a cello.

[Bodacious Cowboy]

3 hours ago, Bill Merkel said:

Give him a break; he had to write it using soul depriving Chinese electronics

In an alternative mythology: "Triumphs and Nortons and Beezers won't do - they don't have a soul like a Vincent '52 "

[David Burgess]

35 minutes ago, Bodacious Cowboy said:

In an alternative mythology: "Triumphs and Nortons and Beezers won't do - they don't have a soul like a Vincent '52 "

Uh oh. You know a lot more about motorsickles than most people. Dang them riff-raff motorcycle enthusiasts.

[PhilipKT]

2 hours ago, martin swan said:

If you take the time to read, Jacob is saying that the essential physical properties of the wood are not as important as most people make out.

Good arching and appropriate thicknessing can make a great sounding instrument out of most kinds of wood, and we find fantastic historic instruments made out of wood which all contemporary makers without exception would reject immediately.

I think you make yourself look a bit stupid accusing Jacob of "blathering on" - you clearly have very little experience in this area and he has a great deal. Why not just try to understand rather than swagger?

I wish this website allowed for “liking” a comment. I think I would like many of yours. As it is, I just have to say so in person. I like your comment. I also like Jacob shaking his cane at the world And saying “get off my lawn” in German, or Victorian English.
He’s one of those crusty old curmudgeons of whom everyone is fond, despite his irascibility.

 

Edited October 22, 2020 by PhilipKT
Had to work in “irascibility”

[PhilipKT]

2 hours ago, David Burgess said:

American and German cars rust away at roughly the same overall rate.

I am a fairly knowledgeable car freak. How 'bout you? Is it possible that you have been seduced by false claims of superiority?

I have a 2011 Mercedes C300. My stepson sneers at it and says I should buy a Honda like he has. I just took it in for the “B1” Service last week in my mechanic pointed out that I had 150,000 miles on it and it was only going to last another year or so. I asked if he suggested something else and he pointed out that his Toyota pick up had 300,000 miles on it… And then he smiled at me. 

[PhilipKT]

1 hour ago, David Burgess said:

Perhaps bragging rights, as an attempt to substitute for useful content?

The unnecessarily long-winded and complex oratorical style does seem to be going out of fashion

You haven’t sat in on a session of Congress. Or watched an episode of “Yes, Minister.”

Meanwhile, having a versatile vocabulary is a wonderful thing, but merely having a plethora of options is nothing unless one also has good judgment as to when to use the less common choices.

[Andreas Preuss]

Let's say that a skilled luthier can change the sound of a factory fiddle

And 'change' is normally labeled as 'improvement', though this is a very subjective matter for instruments of this quality. Actually it is also possible to ruin the sound by overdoing, but presumably no one would call it like this for selling an 'sound improved' factory fiddle.

From my own experience I would say one can diminish the biggest sound deficit of a low grade instrument. Transforming it into an instrument for professional use is maybe possible for something like 1 out of 1000 factory instruments.

[martin swan]

1 hour ago, sospiri said:

The essential properties of wood aren't really essential. Now I get it.

Your blistering sarcasm aside, if you study some Strnads, Testores, Gaglianos, maybe Genoese violins and consider their success as musical instruments against the choice of wood, this conclusion becomes unavoidable.

You can make a great violin out of all sorts of wood - spruce can be different densities, different speed of growth, different stiffness, different regularity of grain. Maple can be flamed, not flamed, slap cut, quartersawn, half-slab, knotty, wavy - all are usable in the right hands.