Possibly French?

[Garth E.]

I've been trying to figure out if my 3/4 violin is possibly French made. I've been reading the many posts here and of course I could be wrong, but I've thought maybe it is French. Maybe late 19th c. Mirecourt. To me the scroll and the f holes suggested French school. No label. Repair made in 1888. Thank-you for your patience with my inquiries.  

[jacobsaunders]

Why not ""possibly Saxon"?

[Blank face]

The notch in the bottom under the endpin (beside some other features) tells that it's a Schnb/Mnk made, but maybe a bit older than you're assuming.

[Garth E.]

1 hour ago, jacobsaunders said:

Why not ""possibly Saxon"?

Jacob I didn't want to assume the notch automatically designates it Saxon. I'll go through all my mental notes to see where I misread my hunch. 

[Garth E.]

55 minutes ago, Blank face said:

but maybe a bit older than you're assuming.

I'm really bad with dates, what would you estimate?

[jacobsaunders]

6 minutes ago, Garth E. said:

I'm really bad with dates, what would you estimate?

first half of 19th C.

[ChicagoDogs]

Nice looking for a fractional instrument, to my eyes at least.  Do those pegs suggest that it might have spent some time in Britain, or are they generic/common enough to be non-specific? 

Also, Garth - very interesting vintage newspaper reprints (I assume) on the table!

[Garth E.]

2 minutes ago, ChicagoDogs said:

Also, Garth - very interesting vintage newspaper reprints (I assume) on the table!

Thanks Chicago Dogs, the British connection was suggested once by a luthier. However Jacob suggests Saxon...and the notch. 

 The newspapers are authentic civil war papers. I still have a few left. At one time I had hundreds of old documents and that kind of thing. I've had to let go of many things over the years.

[PhilipKT]

Is Hopf Saxon? Because those shoulders made me think of Hopf.

[Jwillis]

1716: A New Guild in Klingental, Saxony

Some members of the guild of Markneukirchen lived a

few miles north in Klingental. Three of them, and the

widow of another Master, decided to found their own guild

on January 24, 1716, much to the disapproval of the Markneukirchen

guild, which tried to prevent it.

Among them was Caspar Hopff (1651-1711), who is

also on the list of the founding members of the

Markneukirchen guild. The succeeding generations of his

family developed their own style of violin making in Klingental.

The Hopff, or Hopf, Violin is still recognized today.

Two other Klingental violin makers, Christian Friedrich

Dörfler and Christoph Adam Richter chose to remain

in the Markneukirchen guild... until the new guild threatened

to make them move out of town! They had to change

their memberships.
 

 

 

(This was posted by Jacob in another thread. From an essay written by Herr Weishart for the vsa) 

[Blank face]

Reg. Hopf, Weisshaar and others: One mustn't forget that all this distinctions between guilds and models were historical and all more or less disappeared during the development of industrial production and division of labour between different shops and locations in the 19th century. What was true in 1820 maybe wasn't that anymore in 1870, for example.

[Garth E.]

7 hours ago, Blank face said:

What was true in 1820 maybe wasn't that anymore in 1870, for example.

So quite possibly this violin could have been made by one maker who belonged to a guild in Markneukirchen or Klingental sometime in the mid 19thc. Connecting the violin to a specific maker might be difficult, but maybe there's some clues in the construction I'm missing. Hopf might be a good starting point, given the comments here.

[jacobsaunders]

9 minutes ago, Garth E. said:

Connecting the violin to a specific maker might be difficult, 

Unless the maker wrote his name in pencil inside the belly (very very very rare), you will never in a million years find out it it was made by a Herr Müller or a Herr Maier

[Garth E.]

10 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

you will never in a million years find out

Agreed...maybe longer. Anyway it's almost 200 years old, it's German. That's all it needs to be. Thank-you again for your help Jacob.

[sospiri]

On 10/13/2020 at 2:35 AM, PhilipKT said:

Is Hopf Saxon? Because those shoulders made me think of Hopf.

The Upper and lower bouts and the position of the fs are what we associate with Klingenthal cottage industry I suppose.

[Garth E.]

3 hours ago, sospiri said:

The Upper and lower bouts and the position of the fs are what we associate with Klingenthal cottage industry I suppose.

It would seem that is a logical place to start then. After reading the guild article posted by Jacob I see that the whole Markneukirchen area had many makers in the first half of the 19thc. I suppose if I could figure out if this is an Amati copy or Stainer copy that may help a bit. The repair work is pencilled in English dated 1888, so it may have been shipped to England and had the English pegs installed  at that time. Thanks Sospiri.