Schönbach versus Markneukirchen


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The two villages of Schönbach and  Markneukirchen are less than 10 kilometres from each other , they both churned out vast numbers of violins in the 19th\20th century, and the violins seem to look quite similar, so how do we tell them apart ?

Did  Schönbach  make all the bits of a violin and then sell them to Markneukirchen to assemble and varnish and setup ?

Or did Schönbach also make fully finished violins ?

 

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5 hours ago, Delabo said:

Schönbach versus Markneukirchen

Is that part of the Alien versus Predator franchise?  :huh::ph34r::lol:

Where the trade fiddles are concerned, I don't know of any.  Given the porosity of the border, and that the shipping railhead (as well as most of the money) was in Markneukirchen, I doubt that it matters.  :)

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The reason I asked the question is because Jacob Saunders has just used the term "Schönbach box" in another thread and I cannot recall hearing the same thing said about Markneukirchen violins, ie: "Markie box".

I have just done a little quick research into the origins of Schönbach violin making and find it confusing because of the border changes. But it seems that one village is in Germany and the other in the Czech Republic. So from 1918-ish ? the violins from Schönbach had the label "Made in Czechoslovakia" .

I am more interested in late 19th century violins as it seems that later violins are more easy to spot because they have labels stating the origin, and construction methods seem to be in flux from that point onward.

I remembered reading a long essay about violin making in the region some years back and have found the thread which I shall re-read................

 

 

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one should not forget, that although Schönbach is only a three quarter hour walk from Markneukirchen, there was always a border between these two places, even an “iron curtain” for a long while. The Markneukirchen trade exported to the whole world, and bought in some 100,000 finished and semi finished violins per annum from Schönbach, but also from Grazlitz. So, during the industrial period, the last 30 years of the 19th.C up until the first world war, I wouldn’t take VdA seriously if she insisted that her “Markie” was defiantly even made in Markneukirchen. The attic violins here in Vienna are by contrast almost all from some Schönbach or Grazlitz dealer (Verschicker), since the Markneukirchen colleagues would have had a customs border in between.

Otherwise I am not quite sure what this thread is trying to establish

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37 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

Otherwise I am not quite sure what this thread is trying to establish

I am trying to establish why you so often make a distinction between them if they are essentially the same violins ?

It would seem that they do not have anything to distinguish them, either by external appearance, or physical construction, so why not just use a single generic term to describe them both ?

A Markbach violin, or some such.

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36 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

...........So, during the industrial period, the last 30 years of the 19th.C up until the first world war, I wouldn’t take VdA seriously if she insisted that her “Markie” was defiantly even made in Markneukirchen.............

For heaven's sakes, Jacob, I'd never make such a claim, because I know better.  My earlier post reflects that I know full well that one can't definitely ascribe a trade fiddle to one town or the other.  :P

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19 minutes ago, Jeff White said:

Maybe I"ve missed something, but Jacob seems to have always said that you "can't" make the distinction.

Yes, we regularly refer to Mk/Sch violins - these days I tend to just tell people their violins from Saxony.

Some of our facebooky dealer types like to say a violin is from Klingenthal, I suppose that sounds more special and is maybe a one hour walk from KM as opposed to the mere 45 minutes ...

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I understand there were 1000s of violins cranked out from this region and don't seem to have a very good reputation. Were there any GOOD instruments made by good builders? My grandfather played his violin from the 1910s to the 30s. His main violin is labeled   "Copy of Joseph Guarnierius by Rudolf Fischer 1890".  I have purchased another violin with the same label and looks like it might be from the same maker.

I have read that Rudolf Fischer was a real maker from Schonbach. Anyone know if he was real or a made up factory name?

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10 minutes ago, Delabo said:

Forgive me for being a bit slow but are we saying that  Klingenthal violins are more or less the same as Mk\Sch with nothing to distinguish the three ?

Any more we want to throw into the mix while were at it ?

Actually the violins from this industrial epoch, mostly supplied to the world by the Markneukirchen trade were produced in some 20 or 30 places, from Klingenthal in the East to Wildstein in the West. Markneukirchen/Schönbach/Grazlitz being major centres. Finding a politically correct blanket term will hardly be possible. Even Martin’s suggestion to just call them “Saxon” isn’t correct, since the Southern half of this geographical area was Bohemian, not Saxon

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3 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

If we're being exact in this thread, I'm from West Bridgford:)

Oh, the posh end eh?

13 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

one should not forget, that although Schönbach is only a three quarter hour walk from Markneukirchen,

 

I must commend your remarkable athletic ability.

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2 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

Even Martin’s suggestion to just call them “Saxon” isn’t correct, since the Southern half of this geographical area was Bohemian, not Saxon

Put me right, but surely Schonbach , was occupied largely by Sudentan Germans up until WW2 ?

Native Bohemians and Sudentan Germans would have worked side by side making violins, so is "Saxon" so wide of the mark ?

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20 minutes ago, Delabo said:

Put me right, but surely Schonbach , was occupied largely by Sudentan Germans up until WW2 ?

Native Bohemians and Sudentan Germans would have worked side by side making violins, so is "Saxon" so wide of the mark ?

Good question. The politics is so complicated. What interests me is when the practice of carrying the schatchtel was abandoned?

What I see in my Made in Čsechoslovakia violin is different to the nasty BOB construction of previous years, when the women of Schönbach carried the Schatchtel across the border to Markneukirchen. But in the article on that other thread, this post WW1 period is not really discussed. It's a mystery. 

I think that Mk and Sc were both producing lots of instruments for the European and US markets, but the good ones from Sc rarely had their origin in the label because the name Czechoslovakia or whatever spelling was...

(..............) fill in the blank?

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