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R Weichold cello bow


Tostra
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35 minutes ago, martin swan said:

I have yet to sell a cello bow under 78 grams ... you might take that into consideration before committing to this bow.

For me the acceptable rage of weights for a cello bow would be 78-83 grams or thereabouts.

Haha. Many years ago, my wife and I were going to Paris and I posted about looking for a nice French bow of ~80 grams, specifically 78-82. Such a hullabaloo resulted because I wanted 80 grams. And the consensus is that weight is nothing. Without a reference( I was told), a player can’t guess the weight of a bow anyway, and what matters is how it plays and feels.

I came over to that way of thinking, and I agree completely. The amazing Ouchard I posted about a while back weighs 86 grams and felt like nothing. In Jays shop several years ago I played a tremendous Nürnberger in excellent shape weighing only 73G. I lust after a friend’s perfect HR Phretschner that only weighs 77G. The Closner-stamped bow I found weighs 75 grams and feels quite light, but it matters not a bit in terms of power or sound variety.

And yet now after your comment, I feel like I should switch back to the other side?

What IS a boy to do...

 

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4 hours ago, tradfiddle said:

Well, at least according to Tarisio Richard Weichold existed as a real bow maker - and more importantly there are also a few pages about him (and bows stamped Weichold) in the Gruenke book.

Reading the Grünke book one can learn easily, that August Richard Weichold was trained as a violinmaker, not a bowmaker, and from his earliest output onwards the bows "clearly show the hand of the different masters who either delivered bows to the Weichold workshop or were hired to make them there". Furthermore Weichold retired in 1882 from active participation and turned over the business to the manager and future owner Liebhold Meyer. So it is absolutely unlikely that he ever had a hand in the making of bows personally, and most highly improbable after the date of his retirement. In opposite, the Bausch father and son were trained bow makers and probably ordered a certain lot of bows to be made according to their personal model, that's quite a difference.

Your bow shows exceptional workmanship and materials and I would not be surprised if it was made by the hand of the young August Rau, at least it is very similar to the examples of his work pictured in the book. Such a bow should be usually priced much higher than the reported 2,5 K Dollar, others of lesser workmanship can be even sold significantly cheaper, such "shop dealer brand" bows can't be valuated all to the same level. Dependend of the quality and hands of the different sources the value will vary to multiples.

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13 minutes ago, PhilipKT said:

The amazing Ouchard I posted about a while back weighs 86 grams and felt like nothing. In Jays shop several years ago I played a tremendous Nürnberger in excellent shape weighing only 73G. I lust after a friend’s perfect HR Phretschner that only weighs 77G. The Closner-stamped bow I found weighs 75 grams and feels quite light, but it matters not a bit in terms of power or sound variety.

Talking about weight I agree, that it often doesn't matter that much, but it's the variable most easily to evaluate by the most purchasers.:) But comparing this numbers it's essential to take into consideration that the difference between a thread/whalebone lapping and wire at a cello bow can be easily 7 gr or more. So one mustn't compare apples (wire) with pears (thread).

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9 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

It looks unimpressive for a Weichold.

I tend to agree, I use an older Nurnberger-made Weichold violin bow.  The head is notably more elegant and the wood is much darker, even slightly figured in the right light.  The older Weicholds can be gems IMO.

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That was a lot of responses while I was away...

Well first of all, my father says parrot looks very likely with a not so happy look on his face, so that's what I'll believe for now :P

As to the weight question, I personally don't care what the weight is. I don't believe that a few grams matters one bit when playing. Maybe you can feel a difference between 75 and 85g when given one of each, but for me the center of gravity and stiffness are the two most important factors by far apart from the tone (which of course is also dependant on those two). And again, I think what you want in those two parameters is very different between players.
But I do agree, if you're selling from a website, that number suddenly becomes something you notice as a player, while I have never in my life weighed a bow I was trying or considered buying apart from today when someone asked. I simply play them and quickly get rid of the ones I don't like, leaving me with a few good one to choose between... All without knowing the weight.

Blank Face, nice with some info on the shop from a good source. This makes me wonder why people online have presented AR Weichold and R Weichold as two different people, but if the stamp indicates a bow later than 1902, I suppose the guy was dead anyway, existing or not...
Of the few August Rau cello bows I've been able to find pictures of, none has this very violin-like head which I find the most characteristic feature of the bow, but as it's already been established that I don't know much about bow identification, I won't discard the thought that he might have made it for or in the Weichold shop. And i suppose odd features like this head or the wide corners of my latest (and second) violin are things that can easily be considered indications of early (unexperienced) work? ;-)

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1 hour ago, Blank face said:

 

Your bow shows exceptional workmanship and materials and I would not be surprised if it was made by the hand of the young August Rau, at least it is very similar to the examples of his work pictured in the book. Such a bow should be usually priced much higher than the reported 2,5 K Dollar, others of lesser workmanship can be even sold significantly cheaper, such "shop dealer brand" bows can't be valuated all to the same level. Dependend of the quality and hands of the different sources the value will vary to multiples.

 

14 minutes ago, Tostra said:


Of the few August Rau cello bows I've been able to find pictures of, none has this very violin-like head which I find the most characteristic feature of the bow, but as it's already been established that I don't know much about bow identification, I won't discard the thought that he might have made it for or in the Weichold shop. And i suppose odd features like this head or the wide corners of my latest (and second) violin are things that can easily be considered indications of early (unexperienced) work? ;-)

To clarify: Blank Face was speculating that tradfiddle’s bow could be an August Rau, certainly not yours!

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37 minutes ago, Tostra said:

...

Well first of all, my father says parrot looks very likely with a not so happy look on his face, so that's what I'll believe for now :P

...

If we both agree, it must be so! ^_^

2 hours ago, PhilipKT said:

So a Dodd would be ‘under tall’?

Sounds right!

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12 hours ago, Blank face said:

Reading the Grünke book one can learn easily, that August Richard Weichold was trained as a violinmaker, not a bowmaker, and from his earliest output onwards the bows "clearly show the hand of the different masters who either delivered bows to the Weichold workshop or were hired to make them there". Furthermore Weichold retired in 1882 from active participation and turned over the business to the manager and future owner Liebhold Meyer. So it is absolutely unlikely that he ever had a hand in the making of bows personally, and most highly improbable after the date of his retirement. In opposite, the Bausch father and son were trained bow makers and probably ordered a certain lot of bows to be made according to their personal model, that's quite a difference.

Your bow shows exceptional workmanship and materials and I would not be surprised if it was made by the hand of the young August Rau, at least it is very similar to the examples of his work pictured in the book. Such a bow should be usually priced much higher than the reported 2,5 K Dollar, others of lesser workmanship can be even sold significantly cheaper, such "shop dealer brand" bows can't be valuated all to the same level. Dependend of the quality and hands of the different sources the value will vary to multiples.

Blank face - your comment well  illustrates why I need to finally buy my own copy of the Grünke volumes, rather than snooping around those of friends. I shall buy myself one for Christmas!

That said, there is a long trail of sources as one goes back in time (not the most reliable I know) that posit some original bowmaking by Weichold. Henley (I know, I know...) says that Weichold studied with Pfretzschner and implies that he was more reputed as a bow maker than a violin maker (perhaps for obvious reasons as he was drawing on some exceptional talent). Jalovec (I know, I know...) also has him as a 'quite good' bow maker. Anyway, as a result most dealers still have him as a 'real maker'. The Hills, I admit, would have been a much better analogy than Bausch!

Thanks for the tip re. August Rau who I see was making from the 1880s-1890s, and associated with the Weichold brand, so entirely possible!

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Research is still developing, and maybe we shouldn't blame the authors of earlier anthologies too much for sampling just the available informations from the time, which were very often some marketing propaganda. The mistake is probably made more by them taking this not into consideration.

The violin bow I was referring to (sorry for being not so very clear about it) isn't so different to the cello bow in regards of model, but of a much superior workmanship, especially the head. Please don't make me responsible for having said it's a Rau, to confirm this it would surely need some more examination by one of the respected experts, but like I wrote I would not be surprised if it was.^_^

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