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R Weichold cello bow


Tostra
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I am thinking of buying this bow which I am starting to like quite a lot. I was wondering if any of you in here can provide me with a bit more info, as I'm not very good with identifying bows myself.

It has R Weichold, Dresden stamped on the playing side and an arrow going through RW on the top of the stick, but not the Imitation de Tourte stamp that I've heard was on the finer Weichold bows.
The only information I have so far is that the bow came from a professional musician whose name I have now forgotten. Can anyone tell me more about it? Like if this bow was made by Weichold himself or, if not, who might have made it, the approximate year, if the fittngs seem original etc? I do want to learn about bows as well, so all teaching is highly appreciated.
Also, out of pure curiosity, what do Weichold cello bows typically cost? I've read that the violin bows go for around 2500$. This one is significantly more expensive than that, but to be fair, it is quite a nicely playing bow, so the price doesn't feel unreasonable to me at all. And of course cello bows are more expensive in general.

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Weichold was a shop, rather than a maker, I even have a couple of rosin boxes from him, and the bows, which are often really really good, were bought in, the earlier ones partly from various members of the Nürnberger family, and other good makers of the time, Later the firm was run by 2 generations of the Paulus family. I played an old Weichold cello bow myself as a teenager when I studied cello at the Royal Academy of Music.

Is your bow silver mounted, or nickel? It looks unimpressive for a Weichold. You would be well advised to look around a bit longer, rather than deciding for that one.

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Pretty sure it's silver, not nickel, but I could be wrong. 

This is the one I've landed on as the best suited for my needs after indeed looking a bit around. It is meant more as a really nice extra bow either while my main bow is being rehaired or forr different pieces, as they are quite different. My main bow is a Pfretzschner with a very stiff stick and lots of glassy overtones. This one feels a bit softer and slimmer in the hand and grabs the string more easily and produces a warmer sound, even if it is not quite as brilliant as the Pfretzschner.

I haven't seen other Weichold bows in person, but you think it is unipressive? It's by no means flashy, but it does feel well made and plays very well, maybe the best of about eight I have on loan at the moment including several French bows and a few much more expensive. I've done a bit of research on the Weichold "brand", and it seems there was indeed one or two makers of that name working in the shop? But that's why I'm asking if it's possible to tell which maker in the Weichold shop could be behind the bow, since I suppose the work of Richard Weichold himself would be a fair bit more pricey?

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44 minutes ago, Tostra said:

 it seems there was indeed one or two makers of that name working in the shop? But that's why I'm asking if it's possible to tell which maker in the Weichold shop could be behind the bow, since I suppose the work of Richard Weichold himself would be a fair bit more pricey?

I am not personally aware of anybody called Weichhold who actually made bows himself.

The likes of Nürnberger would have delivered, rather than working there, although others, such as August Rau were apparently employed there for a while. Just who made which Weichold bow is a question where you will need a real expert, like Klaus Grünke, for instance. You should not forget that the firm lasted until the second world war. I fear you might not entirely understand how the violin trade works. If someone tells you Machold (a lawyer, not a violin maker) repaired his violin personally in the 1980’s, although he did nothing of the sort, rather that someone like me doing it in the back room, then you need to speak to someone with a background in the trade:)

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Well, that might be true. I have to say that for one I'm terrible at remembering people, living or historical, and then I've only had this bow for a day and done a few google searches on the name, so if you have done better research than I have and say something different, I have no good reason not to believe you. Only thing I can say is I've seen the names August Richard Weichold and Richard Weichold here and there and thought August was the father and founder of the shop which RW then took over at some point.
Not sure if I've ever claimed to understand the violin trade either. I'm only starting to learn how to build a violin well, the trade itself interests me much less than the instruments ;-)

But basically, you don't think this bow is particularly impressive and not necessarily made in the shop either, but rather bought in and stamped Weichold?

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2 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

It looks unimpressive for a Weichold.

To go a bit deeper into this, especially the frog is of a very plain and simple style, and I can't imagine that it was made by one of the named high level suppliers, as Knopfs, Nürnbergers or Rau. There were certainly other shops supplying Weichhold. The stick seems to be made of good quality wood, but it appears to be relative thin and slender, as well as the head, so I'm curious what's it's weight and if it has enough stability.

Furthermore there are deep dents in the thumb projection of the frog and the chamfer of the head (players side), these are devaluations. Actually I don't see that antique  cello bows are really significantly higher sold than equal violinbows, at least not at auctions.

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It's 75 grams, so I'd say pretty standard. It's definitely not as stiff and stable as my Pfretzschner, and it is significantly slimmer in the hand. It is just a bit softer than I'd like a bow, as I'm a heavy handed player, but not out of the ordinary. As to the frog, maybe it isn't original? I've been wondering about that.

Yes, it is dented. I actually didn't consider them in the price at all... I suppose an unoriginal frog is a rather significant value cut, but dents too?
Here I think cello bows are a good bit more expensive than violin bows, but you're right, it's only about 25-50% on top I think. Well in that case I think this one might be rather overpriced for what it is...
Still, the sound quality does compare to what I'd expect at the price, having tried quite a few in the 2000-6000 USD range in the past year, so in case I still like this one after a while, I'm not sure if I should accept the price or try to get a better deal...

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Well, at least according to Tarisio Richard Weichold existed as a real bow maker - and more importantly there are also a few pages about him (and bows stamped Weichold) in the Gruenke book. Its a bit like the Bausch narrative, in that he made his own bows at the outset, but that those stamped R Weichold Dresden were then effectively sold out of his shop and made by other makers such as the Nürnberger family. I have a c1900 R Weichold Dresden stamped violin bow which is a quite elegant Voirin model.

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Yes, I found the Tarisio page too, good to know he exists in books as well. But if the bows with his name on them have anything to do with him, I can't say.

How have you determined that the bow is a Voirin? It's always puzzled me how some people can tell the maker of a bow with no stamps or other marks hinting at that maker?

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Taking a quick look at examples in the German bow makers book by Klaus Gruenke et al., it seems that the name stamp was not turned upside down in the French fashion until after August Paulus took over the business in 1902.  Do you see the additional stamp, RW with an arrow, that Paulus applied?   Like Blank Face, I'm curious about the weight.  Just from the photos, I'm wondering if it could be a viola bow?

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Yes, if you look at the second photo, the arrow through RW is on top of the stick, even if it has been sligtly rubbed out over time.
The weight is 75 grams, and it is most definitely a cello bow or at least it works exactly like one, as I've been swapping back and forth between it and my own bow today with no issues, and it is sold by a luthier as a cello bow.

Interesting to hear that the arrow was introduced then. I've been wondering if the combination of stamps could point towards some maker or period and also why the name was upside down, but if what you say is true, that pretty much doubles the dating precision from something like [1850,1945] to [1902,1945], correct?

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No, my bow is not by Voirin, but rather modelled on Voirin's style. In other words there are distinctive bow 'models' created by various makers:  'Tourte model', 'Tubbs model', 'Voirin model' etc which are fairly quickly recognisable. HR Pfretzschner, for example, tended to model his bows on those of FN Voirin or James Tubbs.

For information, my R Weichold Dresden violin bow has the name stamp in the pre-1902 fashion, without any additional stamp.

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Okay, thank you. That makes a lot of sense. I am aware of the different models and have often wondered what was what, but apart from a bit on the camber shape, I have never been able to find a good, concise description of the different standard models.
It's a very pretty bow, thanks for sharing!

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The information provided here is valuable but at the end of the day if you like it that’s what matters. I stumbled an a bow stamped Ludwig Closner that i like so much it has replaced one of my nice French bows. So if you like it, you like it, and because you’re the end user, the $2500 isn’t too high a price, although you could offer cash and ask for a discount or otherwise dicker in the price.

That dent on the frog is curious. I can’t imagine how normal use would have caused it.

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6 hours ago, Tostra said:

 

 

Quote

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1 hour ago, tradfiddle said:

Here is my 'R Weichold Dresden' violin bow c.1890-1900

Weichold Bow 2.jpg

Weichold Bow 1.jpg

Thank-you. That illustrates beautifuly why I said that the OP bow is "uimpresive"

1 hour ago, tradfiddle said:

Well, at least according to Tarisio Richard Weichold existed as a real bow maker 

Shows what that web site is worth

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Philip, I agree. I don't intend to buy it for reselling, but for my own use. I only made this thread to hopefully find out some more information and maybe learn something about bows in the process. However, this bow isn't 2500, more like double that I think, so "overpriced" becomes quite a few lunches lost up in that range ;-)

I'm curious about that dent too, I've tried to figure out what it might be. To me it seems the hole is somewhat angled/cornered like a screw notch and maybe varnished on the inside. It has kind of a shiny surface, not like raw ebony... As if something was carved out and varnished to protect it, maybe?

And yes Jacob, I agree with the word unimpressive. It's nowhere near as sharp as that one, no question about it.

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Oh really? Well I agree, I do think it's a light bow compared to what I usually play, but not drastically. And it has been played in a professional orchestra too, as far as I'm aware.
When you say that, do you have lighter bows but they never get sold, or have you just never wanted to sell one?

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1 minute ago, Tostra said:

Oh really? Well I agree, I do think it's a light bow compared to what I usually play, but not drastically. And it has been played in a professional orchestra too, as far as I'm aware.
When you say that, do you have lighter bows but they never get sold, or have you just never wanted to sell one?

We have lighter bows that we never manage to sell ...

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