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Dwight Brown

Interesting instruments at Tarisio London October 2020

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I see covid still leaves its mark on the amount and especially quality of consigned instruments, this auction looks very meager with not so many big names. Of course, this doesn't mean the instruments are not good!

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4 hours ago, Dwight Brown said:

1. Looks to be the case

2. It could be, but you'd have to play it to know.

3. Not really, no. It might look older in person though.

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And two Belin violins, one at Tarisio and the other one at Ingles and Hayday. With higher than usual estimates for contemporary instruments but I don’t know his actual prices!

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This is a question about purchasing from auctions abroad:

Re the London Tarisio and Ingles Hayday auctions, does a buyer in the U.S. pay the UK's VAT along with US import duties?  I notice on the Ingles Hayday offerings that a few of the instruments/bows are marked as being consigned from other countries.  If they had acquired a violin from the US, does a US buyer then avoid their value added tax and the US import duties?

 

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2 hours ago, Richf said:

This is a question about purchasing from auctions abroad:

Re the London Tarisio and Ingles Hayday auctions, does a buyer in the U.S. pay the UK's VAT along with US import duties?  I notice on the Ingles Hayday offerings that a few of the instruments/bows are marked as being consigned from other countries.  If they had acquired a violin from the US, does a US buyer then avoid their value added tax and the US import duties?

 

I am not an expert on taxes.  I have bought a bow from Tarisio London.  I did not pay any VAT, there is no duty on  used bows coming into the USA (Even really expensive ones)

That was my experience, your mileage may vary

DLB

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https://tarisio.com/auctions/auction/lot/?csid=2199289856&cpid=3683074048&filter_key=

 

I wish someone would take a shot at an attribution or point of origin.  It would be a lot to spend on "A Viola"  It looks like it has had an active life but also like it may be time for it's 1,000,000,000 mile service appointment.

DLB

Sorry, I missed that the title of the video suggested Milan.

Does it look cut down?

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2 hours ago, Richf said:

This is a question about purchasing from auctions abroad:

Re the London Tarisio and Ingles Hayday auctions, does a buyer in the U.S. pay the UK's VAT along with US import duties?  I notice on the Ingles Hayday offerings that a few of the instruments/bows are marked as being consigned from other countries.  If they had acquired a violin from the US, does a US buyer then avoid their value added tax and the US import duties?

 

You buy the taxes for temporary import but you can get these back if the item is exported again, though the auction house does not help you with this so you have to fill out all the forms and provide proof yourself and send it HM treasury and/or customs. I had the same question and this was the answer, too much fuzz for me.

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1 minute ago, chrissweden said:

You buy the taxes for temporary import but you can get these back if the item is exported again, though the auction house does not help you with this so you have to fill out all the forms and provide proof yourself and send it HM treasury and/or customs. I had the same question and this was the answer, too much fuzz for me.

I didn't have to do anything this last year, They just didn't charge me.

DLB

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Chris, was your purchase also through Tarisio?  It seems strange that your experience was so different from Dwight's.  I will directly ask the auction houses what charge they collect on exports of items that they had sourced from outside the UK.  

The exemption from US import duties would for  antiques, right?  Ie, not necessarily for "used"?

Richard

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1 hour ago, Dwight Brown said:

I didn't have to do anything this last year, They just didn't charge me.

DLB

Bows of any age are exempt from US import duty. Antique violins are exempt in most states, import of instruments less than 100 years old incurs an import duty of around 20%. If the item was previously exported from the US to the UK then in theory there should be no duty to pay on the way back in but the paperwork is a nightmare.

The whole business of getting things into the US without incurring the zeal of US customs or US fish & game is a specialised business. Best work with someone who knows what is required.

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21 minutes ago, PhilipKT said:

https://tarisio.com/auctions/auction/lot/?csid=2199289856&cpid=3688497152&filter_key=
 

can someone adamantly suggest anything about this cello? Is it a cello? It looks...inexplicable. “Interesting” as been forbidden as a descriptive, but would be inadequate here anyway.

I wondered if I should say something about faux purfling re. Dwights viola already, but decided to carry on with cooking my dinner instead. The viola (to judge by the photos) has painted on false purfling. If you look at something from the Milan “school”, lets say a Testore, with faux purfling, you will notice that the two lines are scratched on. Other schools painted their faux purfling on. These schools include the Salzkammergut, the rural area south of Salzburg, South Bohemia, Saxon, and England (something like a Charles & Samuel Thompson for instance) and others. I would start looking in the area between S. Bohemia, South of Salzburg and older Salzkammergut, but instruments from that area with genuine labels practically don’t exist. On the Cello, one sees the “shadow” off a previous larger label, and I would rather keep my council until I had seen the corner blocks, although the meagre photos also look like painted on purfling.

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Assuming that its some sort of Bohemian instrument, maybe then the scroll does belong?

Sound clip isn't very flattering,  uneven and poor focus on the C,  but these clips can be deceiving.  

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1 hour ago, martin swan said:

Bows of any age are exempt from US import duty

My only experience with US Customs and bows was after I had put a Bultitude gamba bow on consignment in London.  After a period of time when it seemed clear that the bow would not sell, the shop returned to me.  Fedex billed my credit card for import duties based on the insured value of the bow.  Maybe I could have got that money back, but I'm sure it would not have easy.

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13 hours ago, Richf said:

Chris, was your purchase also through Tarisio?  It seems strange that your experience was so different from Dwight's.  I will directly ask the auction houses what charge they collect on exports of items that they had sourced from outside the UK.  

The exemption from US import duties would for  antiques, right?  Ie, not necessarily for "used"?

Richard

I meant if the item was to stay in either the UK or move to a different member state in the EU.

 

Items marked ‡ or Ω in the catalog

These items are classed as temporary admissions and are sold under the Auctioneers’ Scheme, but import VAT of 5% (for items over 100 years old, marked ‡ in the catalog) or 20% (items under 100 years old, marked Ω in the catalog) will be added to the hammer price. For non-antique items, Import Duty of 3.2% is charged on the hammer price. If temporary admissions are to remain in the EU, an administrative fee of £115 per lot will apply for bringing them into home use.

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16 hours ago, Richf said:

This is a question about purchasing from auctions abroad:

Re the London Tarisio and Ingles Hayday auctions, does a buyer in the U.S. pay the UK's VAT along with US import duties?  I notice on the Ingles Hayday offerings that a few of the instruments/bows are marked as being consigned from other countries.  If they had acquired a violin from the US, does a US buyer then avoid their value added tax and the US import duties?

 

No VAT if importing to the US, however there are other charges as outlined above. In addition, there will be a use tax, which is collected by the state. So if you’re in California say, tack on an extra 9% +/- (whatever your county charges). Doesn’t matter if it’s antique or not. Expect a letter from the Franchise Tax Board, unless you pay it when you file your income taxes. The amount is based on the value of the contents listed on the bill of lading which accompanied the shipment. That figure is the invoiced amount from the auction house and will also include the shipping cost. Good luck getting them to reduce it.

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11 hours ago, deans said:

Assuming that its some sort of Bohemian instrument, maybe then the scroll does belong?

At least it matches the style of the body perfectly. Nonetheless a very nice instrument IMO, and not necessarily "Bohemian".

Judging the tone by this sort of soundclip seems to be hazardous. 

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7 hours ago, chrissweden said:

Items marked ‡ or Ω in the catalog

These items are classed as temporary admissions and are sold under the Auctioneers’ Scheme, but import VAT of 5% (for items over 100 years old, marked ‡ in the catalog) or 20% (items under 100 years old, marked Ω in the catalog) will be added to the hammer price. For non-antique items, Import Duty of 3.2% is charged on the hammer price. If temporary admissions are to remain in the EU, an administrative fee of £115 per lot will apply for bringing them into home use.

Ughh!  

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I must admit nothing in this sale is pulling at my heart strings.  They need to hire me to come polish the bows a bit for photographs.  I hate the look of tarnish.

DLB

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