Another Sebastian Kloz Replica Violin?

[martin swan]

It's worth bearing in mind that the reason why scroll carving ends at 6 o'clock is that it's faster. Same with not carving out the delta, same with asymmetrical buttons.

In order to delude bargain-hunters on Ebay who suffer from cataracts and chronic ignorance, it has never been necessary to imitate any particular features. A silly label has always been sufficient for someone to describe their violin as a "copy" of something.

[Blank face]

C'mon Martin, don't talk about facts. These can be easily countered with alternatives.

[martin swan]

Damn, I keep forgetting.
The world has had enough of logic!

[sospiri]

3 hours ago, Wood Butcher said:

A lot of you are putting some store in the label, but really there is no evidence it was put in at the time of manufacture.
It seems more probable that the ridiculous label was glued in by the person who sold it to the OP, presumably on eBay.

Indeed, thanks for bringing some common sense to this thread.

[Delabo]

One clue as whether the label was put in at the time of manufacture or later is what appears to be hide glue running down from the bottom of the label.

If some one was using some trick to insert a label through an f-hole then its more likely that the violin would be flat on its back.

On the other hand would someone who had the top off  stick in a label while it is propped up on its side and  allowing the hot glue to run down ?

However they did it the result is sloppy.

[sospiri]

32 minutes ago, Delabo said:

One clue as whether the label was put in at the time of manufacture or later is what appears to be hide glue running down from the bottom of the label.

If some one was using some trick to insert a label through an f-hole then its more likely that the violin would be flat on its back.

On the other hand would someone who had the top off  stick in a label while it is propped up on its side and  allowing the hot glue to run down ?

However they did it the result is sloppy.

You're overthinking it. Chinese workshops these days don't usually put labels in unless the Master Luthier made the instrument. Once they have sold the instrument it is not their concern whether or not some unscrupulous seller puts a fake label in or not.

I believe that was the point that Wood Butcher was making, and it is mostly likely correct.

[Delabo]

1 hour ago, sospiri said:

You're overthinking it. Chinese workshops these days don't usually put labels in unless the Master Luthier made the instrument. Once they have sold the instrument it is not their concern whether or not some unscrupulous seller puts a fake label in or not.

I believe that was the point that Wood Butcher was making, and it is mostly likely correct.

Ah, I see, point taken - thanks.

[Violadamore]

6 hours ago, Blank face said:

I think this would be a big waste of time and electric energy. We're trying to explain this since nearly ten years, obviously without any effect.

The essence of every conspiracy theory (here the "Chinese trying to fake worthless Markneukirchen" conspiracy) is that it's impossible to argue about it. I'm wondering why they didn't try to imitate badly repaired bottom post cracks and stripped varnish to make it more convincing?

Conspiracy theory??    "the Chinese"?    No.  Things like this are special ordered.  Anyone familiar with what services are offered by Chinese violin manufacturers on Ali Express will know how easy it is.  Some buyer with intent to deceive had a container load of these things run up custom.  You can get darn near anything you specify, at low prices in large quantities.

Longtime denizens of The Auction Scroll will recall that similar shenanigans have happened before, on at least one occasion involving the faking of an entire nonexistent family of American violinmakers.  The same people who did that had a load (to date, over 500 have been sold) of fake German student fiddles resembling a Scherl & Roth built for them, for sale on eBay.  In both of those cases, the fiddles were labeled by the manufacturer before shipping to the USA, not by the distributor who ordered them.

The sellers who had the OP violin made are doubtless up to similar deception, and could be anywhere.  They probably provided the makers with drawings of what they wanted.  Unfortunately for them, the makers had never seen a real Markie. 

[Wood Butcher]

37 minutes ago, Violadamore said:

Conspiracy theory??    "the Chinese"?

It could get worse.

Perhaps aliens influenced the Russians, to tell the Chinese, to start making violins with a less orange, and darker varnish, so that Americans looking on eBay would think they were copies of Markneukirchen violins.

I hope you have your tin foil hat nearby!

[Blank face]

6 minutes ago, Wood Butcher said:

start making violins with a less orange

This makes perfectly sense. Probably the Americans are now tired of orange.

[Violadamore]

18 minutes ago, Wood Butcher said:

It could get worse.

Perhaps aliens influenced the Russians, to tell the Chinese, to start making violins with a less orange, and darker varnish, so that Americans looking on eBay would think they were copies of Markneukirchen violins.

I hope you have your tin foil hat nearby!

Unfortunately, the truth won't be nearly that dramatic.  I'm doing some digging around, but haven't found an example of the OP violin on eBay yet.

[Blank face]

9 minutes ago, Violadamore said:

Unfortunately, the truth won't be nearly that dramatic.  I'm doing some digging around, but haven't found an example of the OP violin yet, though I have stumbled across several eBay sellers offering "Sebastian Kloz student violins" being attributed to Knilling, having a browner than usual varnish, but with the sharp rib corners that one would expect.

This is making perfect sense also.

Someone ordered some hundreds of cheap and nasty looking fake Markneukirchens, but the producers were unable to make them looking alike in any way. Therefore they labeled them as Klotz to disguise the criminal intention.

So who is giving a f... for boring logic.

[Wood Butcher]

Just now, Blank face said:

This is making perfect sense also.

Someone ordered some hundreds of cheap and nasty looking fake Markneukirchens, but the producers were unable to make them looking alike in any way. Therefore they labeled them as Klotz to disguise the criminal intention.

So who is giving a f... for boring logic.

How can you be so blasé? I will never be able to sleep tonight at the thought of fake student violins

[Violadamore]

1 minute ago, Blank face said:

This is making perfect sense also.

Someone ordered some hundreds of cheap and nasty looking fake Markneukirchens, but the producers were unable to make them looking alike in any way. Therefore they labeled them as Klotz to disguise the criminal intention.

So who is giving a f... for boring logic.

Excuse me, Blankie, but just what is your problem with this?  Scams selling deceptive goods produced to order in China are nothing new on eBay.   I'm just appalled that the purity of my rubbish supply is endangered.   

[deans]

Do I need to get my Markies certified now?

[Violadamore]

4 minutes ago, deans said:

Do I need to get my Markies certified now?

Now there's an idea for making some easy money.   

[Delabo]

So how does one go about inserting fake labels into a violin without taking the top off ?

Is there a tool devised for the job ?

A method ?

I have never done it (honest guv) so have no idea of how to proceed after acquiring said label hot off the laser printer

If you know the answer perhaps its best to keep quiet

[Blank face]

56 minutes ago, Violadamore said:

Excuse me, Blankie, but just what is your problem with this?

I have no problem with your theory, absolutely. It's the basic assumption only (that the OP is resembling Markneukirchen Dutzendware) appearing a bit odd, but only at first sight, and that it isn't labelled as such. Starting to assume that this is deliberately done to make the fraud even more convincing is giving it the right spin.

[rudall]

4 hours ago, Delabo said:

So how does one go about inserting fake labels into a violin without taking the top off ?

?????

[Kheong]

On 9/29/2020 at 10:49 PM, Violadamore said:

Arrrrgh!!  [Double facepalm.]  Blasphemy!!!!     

@Kheong, very nice, clear photos, thank you.  Please add two additional pics, one showing the back side of the scroll and neck from the top to the button, and a second pic taken obliquely through the treble side F-hole, to show the area around the base of the soundpost. 

[Aside to the audience]  We might as well see the full extent of this travesty.  I've been expecting something like this to appear for a long time now.  The Four Horsemen seem to be gathering.  Dear heavens, fake rubbish.........   [Begins to weep theatrically.] 

Thanks, @Violadamore, pictures as requested.

[Kheong]

On 9/30/2020 at 6:26 PM, Delabo said:

One clue as whether the label was put in at the time of manufacture or later is what appears to be hide glue running down from the bottom of the label.

If some one was using some trick to insert a label through an f-hole then its more likely that the violin would be flat on its back.

On the other hand would someone who had the top off  stick in a label while it is propped up on its side and  allowing the hot glue to run down ?

However they did it the result is sloppy.

Very keen eye for details!

[Kheong]

Thanks for sharing so many pointers. Learnt alot. Maybe just to share a little more, this violin was passed from a French friend who is a rather passionate violin player and kept for some years thereafter. The "cracked" surface is evident on most part throughout the front and back. Suspect these were done to give a vintage look..

[Violadamore]

10 hours ago, Kheong said:

Thanks, @Violadamore, pictures as requested.

 

OK, IMHO, you have a very good quality commercially made Chinese violin with some custom design changes made to simulate a better-quality circa 1900 Markneukirchen trade violin.  How well does it sound and play? 

[jacobsaunders]

3 hours ago, Violadamore said:

 commercially made Chinese violin with some custom design changes made to simulate a better-quality circa 1900 Markneukirchen trade violin.  

Are you in some sort of delirium?

[Violadamore]

16 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

Are you in some sort of delirium?

OK, Jacob, what would you identify it as, bearing in mind that an ordinary Chinese trade-fiddle, being based on the old Mirecourt variety, design-wise, has center cleats, pointy rib corners, bitter-end throat flutes, and no delta on the scroll back? 

Usually, when they want one to look "German", they just use brown varnish on it (think, "Johannes Köhr").   With this one, somebody went well beyond that.