Another Sebastian Kloz Replica Violin?

[Wood Butcher]

4 hours ago, PhilipKT said:

I’ve known a few Klotzes and they sounded fantastic. Do they not generally sound good?

oh I should have shared this comment with @matesic

 

From my experience, they can sound very good indeed, and are beautifully made.

I think there is a problem however, in that almost every Mittenwald violin from this period has been relabelled as a Kloz when it is not. So what someone thinks is a Kloz, and what is really a Kloz are not the same.

[Wood Butcher]

55 minutes ago, Violadamore said:

 

Exactly, and that's the entire problem.  The point to concentrate on is that it is not intended as a fake Klotz.  It is very clearly intended to be a fake Markneukirchen-trade-fiddle-with-a-fake-Klotz-label.  Due to some hopefully inescapable realities of the Chinese mass-production process, it is obvious as what it is, to serious rubbish connoisseurs, but a disgustingly serious effort has been made here to fool the eye.   IMHO, the only possible use for something like this is by those engaged in defrauding consumers.  Everybody take a really good look, we're certain to see more of this. 

I'm really not sure this was the intention at all, to fake a Markneukirchen trade box.

To me, it is just a generic new instrument with a rather ridiculous label. Just as easily it could have carried a Strad, Rocca or Guadagnini label.

[Violadamore]

Just now, Wood Butcher said:

I'm really not sure this was the intention at all, to fake a Markneukirchen trade box.

To me, it is just a generic new instrument with a rather ridiculous label. Just as easily it could have carried a Strad, Rocca or Guadagnini label.

I'm sending you a PM with the "whys".  This business is not "as usual". 

[GeorgeH]

40 minutes ago, Violadamore said:

I'm sending you a PM with the "whys".  This business is not "as usual". 

I'd be interested to know what you're seeing. Looks like the usual Chinese box to me.

[PhilipKT]

1 hour ago, Violadamore said:

I'm sending you a PM with the "whys".  This business is not "as usual". 

Do you mind sharing with me as well? Sincerely, an old white guy

[PhilipKT]

1 hour ago, Wood Butcher said:

From my experience, they can sound very good indeed, and are beautifully made.

I think there is a problem however, in that almost every Mittenwald violin from this period has been relabelled as a Kloz when it is not. So what someone thinks is a Kloz, and what is really a Kloz are not the same.

On one hand you’re exactly right, any fine quality german violin is called “Klotz school” or something like. And even the real ones span 200 years.

on the other hand, there were so many Klotzes, and their methods and style must’ve dominated the area, so is it possible that a violin from that time would, perhaps inadvertently, demonstrate several Klotz features, enough to make the claim at least unintentionally accurate?

[Bill Merkel]

probably the op violin is a klotz copy done factory style, taking their basic model and making a couple changes the public associates with klotz.  same as a factory strad, guarneri, guad, stainer, etc.

[martin swan]

21 minutes ago, Bill Merkel said:

probably the op violin is a klotz copy done factory style, taking their basic model and making a couple changes the public associates with klotz.  same as a factory strad, guarneri, guad, stainer, etc.

It's not a Klotz copy - it has no features of any Klotz violin, it's just a new violin with a random label.

[Bill Merkel]

4 minutes ago, martin swan said:

It's not a Klotz copy - it has no features of any Klotz violin, it's just a new violin with a random label.

i said features the buying public associates with klotz.  do you not see the try at old german characteristics vdm spotted?

[Violadamore]

5 minutes ago, Bill Merkel said:

i said features the public associates with klotz.  do you not see the try at old german characteristics vdm spotted?

Be it noted well, the OP violin is a Markie copy, with Saxon hints, not a Mittenwalder copy. 

The "public" probably thinks "Klotz" are what gives you strokes. 

[martin swan]

5 minutes ago, Bill Merkel said:

i said features the buying public associates with klotz.  do you not see the try at old german characteristics vdm spotted?

Sorry no - not the model, not the edgework, not the f-holes, not the scroll, not the varnish. Just looks like a regular new trade violin to me ... I would imagine the label is a complete afterthought.

I can't see a single detail that's trying to look like Kloz or any Mittenwald maker (or MK)

[Bill Merkel]

"Be it noted well, the OP violin is a fake Markie, with Saxon hints, not a fake Mittenwalder.  "

 

i think that's going too far.  i think they're probably thinking for the klotz model let's just do old german

[martin swan]

1 minute ago, Bill Merkel said:

i think that's going too far.  i think they're probably thinking for the klotz model let's just do old german

Well you're going to have to draw my attention to something which is trying to look like "Old German". Presumably you've got your new prescription already ...?

[deans]

I better check my junk pile. Maybe I tossed an old Markie in there thats really a decent sounding Chinese fiddle. 

[Bill Merkel]

5 minutes ago, martin swan said:

Well you're going to have to draw my attention to something which is trying to look like "Old German". Presumably you've got your new prescription already ...?

well, when she said that, i had to try and see what she was talking about.  i looked for stuff that doesn't say usual chinese, like the asymmetry in the back pic.  you'll have to ask her.     unfortunately i'm half blind and a new prescription wouldn't help

 

[Violadamore]

2 minutes ago, martin swan said:

Well you're going to have to draw my attention to something which is trying to look like "Old German". Presumably you've got your new prescription already ...?

I'll send you what I'm sending everybody else, but in your case for review. 

[Bill Merkel]

^why so paranoid?

[PhilipKT]

2 hours ago, martin swan said:

Sorry no - not the model, not the edgework, not the f-holes, not the scroll, not the varnish. Just looks like a regular new trade violin to me ... I would imagine the label is a complete afterthought.

I can't see a single detail that's trying to look like Kloz or any Mittenwald maker (or MK)

Martin, I would be grateful if you would go through the list that VDA has shared, and respond to what she has listed, with her permission of course. I think it would be extremely valuable for everybody here.

[jacobsaunders]

3 hours ago, PhilipKT said:

Martin, I would be grateful if you would go through the list that VDA has shared, and respond to what she has listed, with her permission of course. I think it would be extremely valuable for everybody here.

There is no value in analysing rubbish. One should try to spend 100% of ones time studying genuine things. That is why people who spend all evening scrolling down through pages and pages of junk on ebay will never be able to recognise something genuine, evenn if you rub their noses on it

[Wood Butcher]

A lot of you are putting some store in the label, but really there is no evidence it was put in at the time of manufacture.
It seems more probable that the ridiculous label was glued in by the person who sold it to the OP, presumably on eBay.

[Delabo]

The only markie feature that I can see is the 6 o clock scroll.

The bottom rib is a bit odd, it looks like it might have originally been in one piece but has been snapped at the button to look like a two piece rib.

I see no evidence of it being BOB, it looks normal Chinese outer mold to my eyes.

The flat scroll eye looks more French than markie.

So what are you seeing Violadamore ?

 

[Violadamore]

13 minutes ago, Delabo said:

The only markie feature that I can see is the 6 o clock scroll.

The bottom rib is a bit odd, it looks like it might have originally been in one piece but has been snapped at the button to look like a two piece rib.

I see no evidence of it being BOB, it looks normal Chinese outer mold to my eyes.

The flat scroll eye looks more French than markie.

So what are you seeing Violadamore ?

 

Check your inbox. 

[Blank face]

5 hours ago, PhilipKT said:

Martin, I would be grateful if you would go through the list that VDA has shared, and respond to what she has listed, with her permission of course. I think it would be extremely valuable for everybody here.

I think this would be a big waste of time and electric energy. We're trying to explain this since nearly ten years, obviously without any effect.

The essence of every conspiracy theory (here the "Chinese trying to fake worthless Markneukirchen" conspiracy) is that it's impossible to argue about it. I'm wondering why they didn't try to imitate badly repaired bottom post cracks and stripped varnish to make it more convincing?

[Blank face]

12 hours ago, shunkpenn said:

I just acquired this and thought it looked early Mittenwald and In the Klotz family...

Could be a Mittenwald, but more probably later from the 18th century. The lower f-holes tongues seem to be altered.

[Bill Merkel]

somebody is thinking the most technologically advanced nation can't make bad fakes of junk violins w/o their help