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neck removal saw


Mat Roop
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18 minutes ago, Dave Slight said:

I’ve reset several hundred necks. I never needed to saw one out before.

Same here: I normally use the old karate chop method. On violins that are built like a brick shit house, one can always chop the top block out. This argument crops up every few years on Maestronet and ist to be avoided.

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Tip for using alcohol to break glue joints: 99% anhydrous ethanol is much more effective than the 95% or less stuff produced by distillation alone. I've also been told to avoid alcohol denatured with methanol for this purpose. Aside from the health concerns it has a tendency to make the glue "gummy" rather than giving way cleanly. MEK denatured is fine.

This advice was given to me by a highly respected restorer and has served me very well. Especially when removing necks :).

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On 9/25/2020 at 8:47 AM, Dave Slight said:

I’ve reset several hundred necks. I never needed to saw one out before.

There are cases when this is advisable... see below.

On 9/25/2020 at 9:06 AM, jacobsaunders said:

Same here: I normally use the old karate chop method. On violins that are built like a brick shit house, one can always chop the top block out. This argument crops up every few years on Maestronet and ist to be avoided.

Like many things, there are exceptions.

On 9/25/2020 at 9:33 AM, Strad O Various Jr. said:

with a knife

Yes.  The button can often be separated with a knife.

On 9/25/2020 at 3:46 PM, Wood Butcher said:

If you saw out the neck, it will be too loose to refit without extra work.

I've rarely seen a case when some "extra work" isn't required (or at least advisable) no matter how the neck is removed.

You guys are rough.  Might be better (and more accurate) to say "a saw is not always advisable or necessary".  Thing is, sometimes it is advisable. 

I'd also recommend that some care be taken with karate chops without careful preparation on a number of earlier 20th century French instruments (like Blanchard for example) if they have their original neck set intact.  Several were set in with what might be described without much argument as a "dovetail", or if you prefer a rather distinct flair, of the neck root inside the block. It's not visible when the instrument is intact. Chop it without sawing and you'll have a rib crack or two at minimum to contend with.

With the button some older instruments, especially if they have repairs near the button, at the button or in the ribs in that area, it's often safer to saw the neck root along the button...and possibly along the sides.   Case by case... Ask yourself questions like: "Am I going  to add a piece  to the neck root to raise the overstand anyway?"...and "Will the width of the  heel require modification?'

Remember to remove the screw before letting your testosterone guide you in chopping at the neck of a Degani.

My 2 cents.  Have at it.

 

 

 

 

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I wasn't (only) joking, but there are also the Vogtland dovetailed necks (s. photos), which were mentioned and pictured at some occasions before. It would be interesting to know if Blanchard used the same attachment, because I've never seen one in an opened state. In such a case I would rather open the instrument and chisel out the upper block.

OTOH there are many Vogtland heels (but also from other regions) having concave neck heel sides which simply can't be sawn out with a straight blade without a big loss of original substance.

I'm using a thin knife to separate the sides of the neck heel from the block with the help of a drop of water and also the end grain side (after removing the fingerboard). When this is done with the necessary patience there's no need for a hard karate chop, a bit of gentle rocking will do it to make the neck come out.

vogtld. hals 001.jpg

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1 hour ago, Jeffrey Holmes said:

 

I'd also recommend that some care be taken with karate chops without careful preparation on a number of earlier 20th century French instruments (like Blanchard for example) if they have their original neck set intact.  Several were set in with what might be described without much argument as a "dovetail", or if you prefer a rather distinct and flair, of the neck root inside the block. It's not visible when the instrument is intact. Chop it without sawing and you'll have a rib crack or two at minimum to contend with.

The button some older instruments, especially if they have repairs near the button, at the button or in the ribs in that area, it's often safer to saw the neck root along the button...and possibly along the sides.   Case by case... Ask yourself questions like: "Am I going  to add a piece  to the neck root to raise the overstand anyway?"...and "Will the width of the  heel require modification?'

Remember to remove the screw before letting your testosterone guide you in chopping at the neck of a Degani.

I don’t disagree with you, neither did you remotely contradict what I said above. One might add “through necks” to your list. Reminds me of my ex-cat (R.I.P.), when he wanted to piss in the hedge, he would spend about a quarter of an hour checking out that nothing was in a position to attack him whilst he was at it.

The fact is that many necks are almost falling out on their own accord, and sawing them seems akin to vandalism.

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On 9/25/2020 at 9:24 AM, Brad Dorsey said:

When using this method, how do you separate the neck from the button?

 

On 9/25/2020 at 9:33 AM, Strad O Various Jr. said:

with a knife

Yes, but not without significant risk, particularly if that area has had prior repairs.

These days, I'd probably prefer to separate the neck heel from the button with a saw, than risk creating new cracks or re-opening old ones. Of course, if that joint is already loose or open, that would be a different matter. Not all neck removals are the same.

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11 hours ago, Wood Butcher said:

Have you removed a neck before Mat?

yes, many... but most have shown signs of already being loose in places. I've used the Karate chop only after cutting down the seam along the sides of the neck... and separating most of the heel with a very thin artists spatula

Thanks to all  for all the advice! ... Mat

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9 hours ago, Bodacious Cowboy said:

Tip for using alcohol to break glue joints: 99% anhydrous ethanol is much more effective than the 95% or less stuff produced by distillation alone. I've also been told to avoid alcohol denatured with methanol for this purpose. Aside from the health concerns it has a tendency to make the glue "gummy" rather than giving way cleanly. MEK denatured is fine.

This advice was given to me by a highly respected restorer and has served me very well. Especially when removing necks :).

Ive been using 99% isopropyl alcohol from the drug store... seems to work well... and cheap too! I use a hypodermic syringe to ease the alcohol out ever so slowly onto the knife/spatula so that it just wicks in without running.

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6 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

I don’t disagree with you, neither did you remotely contradict what I said above. One might add “through necks” to your list. Reminds me of my ex-cat (R.I.P.), when he wanted to piss in the hedge, he would spend about a quarter of an hour checking out that nothing was in a position to attack him whilst he was at it.

The fact is that many necks are almost falling out on their own accord, and sawing them seems akin to vandalism.

Good cat. :-) Cheers Jacob!

 

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20 hours ago, Mat Roop said:

Ive been using 99% isopropyl alcohol from the drug store... seems to work well... and cheap too! I use a hypodermic syringe to ease the alcohol out ever so slowly onto the knife/spatula so that it just wicks in without running.

Really??  Will Isopropyl really work as well?  Would be easier/cheaper to get too.  I use the heavier Everclear, but I think that's around 95%?? Can't get it in Ca, but Burgess sold me a bottle a few years ago at Oberlin Resto, almost out. I make sure I'm really careful about it having the ability to such moisture out of the air, so I keep it in smaller jars with almost no air, and keep many syringes full of it so no air can get in.

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23 minutes ago, Jeff White said:

Really??  Will Isopropyl really work as well?  Would be easier/cheaper to get too.  I use the heavier Everclear, but I think that's around 95%?? Can't get it in Ca, but Burgess sold me a bottle a few years ago at Oberlin Resto, almost out. I make sure I'm really careful about it having the ability to such moisture out of the air, so I keep it in smaller jars with almost no air, and keep many syringes full of it so no air can get in.

Please don't get me busted for illegal liquor sales. :lol:

One of my daughters does happen to live very close to the Kentucky border (and Everclear is widely available in Kentucky) so I do get down there somewhat regularly.

Last time, I brought about four bottles up to the counter, and the counter person said, "Oh, you must be a woodworker". They know what's up, and the primary use.

For gawds sake, don't ever drink the stuff. :wacko:  Even the "Kentucky moonshine " the store sold was only about 50% alcohol. 95% alcohol can kill you without the gradual over-inebriation warnings one may be accustomed to with things like beer or wine, or even with 50% alcohol.

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On 9/26/2020 at 1:04 PM, Blank face said:

I wasn't (only) joking, but there are also the Vogtland dovetailed necks (s. photos), which were mentioned and pictured at some occasions before. It would be interesting to know if Blanchard used the same attachment, because I've never seen one in an opened state. In such a case I would rather open the instrument and chisel out the upper block.

OTOH there are many Vogtland heels (but also from other regions) having concave neck heel sides which simply can't be sawn out with a straight blade without a big loss of original substance.

I'm using a thin knife to separate the sides of the neck heel from the block with the help of a drop of water and also the end grain side (after removing the fingerboard). When this is done with the necessary patience there's no need for a hard karate chop, a bit of gentle rocking will do it to make the neck come out.

vogtld. hals 001.jpg

I've got one exactly like the Goram joint, only from 1911.  One has to be careful, and not assume that all Markies are created alike.

On 9/25/2020 at 8:47 AM, Dave Slight said:

I’ve reset several hundred necks. I never needed to saw one out before.

On 9/26/2020 at 1:13 PM, jacobsaunders said:

The fact is that many necks are almost falling out on their own accord, and sawing them seems akin to vandalism.

Yup.  I've never yet needed to saw one out.  :)

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