uncle duke Posted October 3, 2020 Report Share Posted October 3, 2020 8 hours ago, l33tplaya said: Nor are all of us products of our times. I tend to be and also believe one reaps the fields he sows - reminds me for some reason of the time when I asked our 300 pound librarian what the word explicit meant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Fine Posted October 3, 2020 Report Share Posted October 3, 2020 There has to be a balance between acknowledging the banality of evil and moral relativism. Just because "things were like that in the old days" doesn't make it right. It doesn't make it defensible. It doesn't mean it doesn't bear scrutiny. And it fails to take into account the opinions of the people for whom the "things were like that." In the case of enslaved people hundreds or thousands of years ago, in the case of abused women now or years ago, their opinions were and are not considered. Their stories were and are not told. On the other hand, human beings, by and large, fall in line. If someone in authority tells them to behave a certain way, they'll do it. Especially if it's easy. Even people who recognize something is wrong seldom act out of line. Reading Eichmann in Jerusalem taught me to believe that l33tplaya is wrong. Or at least, I don't believe necessarily that I would act against the NAZIs or slavery in the US or Rome or if I were someone at Curtis and the President of the Institution told me to shut my trap about the sex-criminal violin professor. I would like to think that I would act... because some people do. It's rare, but people strive against the grain. But to assume that about myself seems unfair. (I think the term "virtue signaling" is ridiculous, by the way, Herman. What a nasty thing to say about someone and perhaps about yourself as well.) On the other hand, now that I've read Eichmann in Jerusalem, I not only know how banal evil is, but I also know how weak evil is and how easily it falls when it comes up against the slightest resistance. Let's make sure we call out wickedness where and when we see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lwl Posted October 3, 2020 Report Share Posted October 3, 2020 On the Brahms/Bruch thing -- when Bruch was alive, some people assumed he was Jewish because he composed Kol Nidrei. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rue Posted October 3, 2020 Report Share Posted October 3, 2020 42 minutes ago, lwl said: On the Brahms/Bruch thing -- when Bruch was alive, some people assumed he was Jewish because he composed Kol Nidrei. Yes. I found that out when I was learning it too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilipKT Posted October 4, 2020 Report Share Posted October 4, 2020 It is literally impossible to NOT be a product of our times. Andrew Jackson and Abe Lincoln were both products of their times. Each possessed attitudes that would be considered backwards today, but which were considered acceptable back then, but one of them is obviously more palatable by today’s standards. It is ridiculous to claim to not be a product of one’s time. Of what time are you, then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rue Posted October 4, 2020 Report Share Posted October 4, 2020 I think it's nice to be able to say that we'd do the "right thing" in a given situation - but until we find ourselves in that situation, we really have no idea of what we'd do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilipKT Posted October 4, 2020 Report Share Posted October 4, 2020 1 hour ago, Rue said: I think it's nice to be able to say that we'd do the "right thing" in a given situation - but until we find ourselves in that situation, we really have no idea of what we'd do. Absolutely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeH Posted October 4, 2020 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2020 8 hours ago, Rue said: I think it's nice to be able to say that we'd do the "right thing" in a given situation - but until we find ourselves in that situation, we really have no idea of what we'd do. I know that I would never sexually assault anybody, nor would I condone somebody else doing it or covering it up. There is no moral relativism about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evan Smith Posted October 4, 2020 Report Share Posted October 4, 2020 On 10/3/2020 at 7:10 AM, uncle duke said: I tend to be and also believe one reaps the fields he sows - reminds me for some reason of the time when I asked our 300 pound librarian what the word explicit meant. And? Waiting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evan Smith Posted October 4, 2020 Report Share Posted October 4, 2020 16 hours ago, PhilipKT said: It is literally impossible to NOT be a product of our times. Andrew Jackson and Abe Lincoln were both products of their times. Each possessed attitudes that would be considered backwards today, but which were considered acceptable back then, but one of them is obviously more palatable by today’s standards. It is ridiculous to claim to not be a product of one’s time. Of what time are you, then? 15 hours ago, Rue said: I think it's nice to be able to say that we'd do the "right thing" in a given situation - but until we find ourselves in that situation, we really have no idea of what we'd do. You guys make a great team, I personalty find these claims more than ridiculous. You're basically claiming not to know who you really are, how you are gonna act, and that you have no deep convictions that you can trust to move you into a certain predictable action in a certain situation. so as a product of my time should I get a nose ring? sex change? cardi B tattoo on my behind? Go burn down other peoples lives? Go on some naked bike rides, the new legal fad? It is easy to justify anything if everyone's doing it and I have no solid convictions of right and wrong, many claim that pedophila is a choice, is that true? is it a choice?, as a product of my times they tell me so. Many people would respond to the world around them exactly the same, no matter when they lived, ,,,,,,, Looking at others actions and beliefs from the past to determine what your future might be like and how I, you, them or any others might behave in a modern paradigm is a bit of an excuse for those that don't want to make a firm decision on things that are really important. Huh? This is a modern problem, it seems to be shifting to,,,,, Way to many are becoming rubber spine, indecisive, peer pressured butt hurt, continuously offended, angry, scoffing, unable to even carry on an intelligent dialogue, screaming abuse cause we don't give them a new car, clueless as to whats really important, taking enless pics and posting yet having no true friends,,, all too weird to me,,, I'm supposed to be a product of that? admittedly,, many are deceived and and lost,, and do become that product, it is extremely sad to watch, the bait is strong these days,,almost so attractive that millions will fall,,, but not all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rue Posted October 4, 2020 Report Share Posted October 4, 2020 I can't tell the future. I like to think I know how I'd behave in a certain circumstance, but I can't foretell all what variables might be present in a given instance. I can come up with all kinds of scenarios...like a lot of board games have done. But life isn't always a 'safe' game to play... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evan Smith Posted October 4, 2020 Report Share Posted October 4, 2020 Agreed totally,, I don't mean to be so hardcore, I don't like seeing people giving in to fate so easily,, What would I do faced with a crazy man with a gun,, first maybe relieve myself, ???? Try to talk calmly and sensibility to him,,, hope so. I've had a few daughters,, they know how to transfer someone into the next dimension with a bic pen if necessary. Never give up, never give in, understand where you stand. Not a safe game at all,,, Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Merkel Posted October 5, 2020 Report Share Posted October 5, 2020 The actually sane course of action here is to hell with celebrities. On the other hand, what do you all think about Cardi B's butt lift? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncle duke Posted October 5, 2020 Report Share Posted October 5, 2020 20 hours ago, Evan Smith said: And? Waiting? Well, being a high school junior I thought maybe just a "get away from me boy" reply from her but no, it just happened to be a grab my arm and sit right here with me scenario and let's discuss this some - everybit of a full library session visit worth of time. How embarrassing and humbling - I already knew what it meant before asking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Fine Posted October 5, 2020 Report Share Posted October 5, 2020 20 hours ago, Evan Smith said: I don't mean to be so hardcore, I don't like seeing people giving in to fate so easily,, What would I do faced with a crazy man with a gun,, first maybe relieve myself, ???? Try to talk calmly and sensibility to him,,, hope so. Evan, I think many of us share the same passionate faith in ourselves that you do. Unfortunately, I think the point in telling stories like Lara St. John's is that history does not bear out the idea that "good people" act according to their morals in all situations. When the structures of whatever corrupting system are in place, acting contrary to the norm takes not just courage but an ability to see what is invisible to others. Imagine if the crazy person with the gun is holding a group of you, and the first person who pissed himself got shot. And the second person who tried to talk reasonably with him got shot. And the third person who ran at him with a BIC pen also got shot. Maybe you might be able to convince yourself that it's in your best interest and in the interest of everyone else in the group to just listen to the guy with the gun. Is that so hard a circumstance to imagine for yourself? If so, do you at least acknowledge that you are an unusual person? Most people tend to fall in line. Bill, I don't particularly care about whatever plastic surgery anyone is getting whether it's someone's mother or father or brother or sister or child or a celebrity I've never met. I do, however, care about Cardi B who I think is an excellent rapper and a good voice to have in the Hip Hop world. It's funny how much I've heard from conservative voices across all media forms the past two weeks about W.A.P. and Cardi B (what news are you consuming that talks about it a lot, just curious?). The song is far from her best, far from the most explicit rap out there... why did it attract so much attention? The video is good, really funny, strong art direction. It's a shame that the song isn't great, but working with up-and-coming-stars Megan thee Stallion and Normani shows excellent artistic judgement. It's good to remember that if you see art that you either don't like or don't think is art, that's OK. Maybe it wasn't made for you, maybe you lack necessary context. I sure was offended the first time I heard Pierrot Lunaire or really anything atonal, and, frankly, I didn't learn to appreciate hip hop until I was in grad school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Merkel Posted October 5, 2020 Report Share Posted October 5, 2020 2 hours ago, Stephen Fine said: (what news are you consuming that talks about it a lot, just curious?). Not sure, but I see it sometimes if the popup settings on my browser are wrong. One problem among many is it deprives youth of the desire to learn an instrument. Disco and punk did the same thing, but only for a couple years, not for generations Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Merkel Posted February 14, 2021 Report Share Posted February 14, 2021 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Merkel Posted February 14, 2021 Report Share Posted February 14, 2021 Probably the wrong thread to tag it on, but it was the first of the teacher-student threads that showed up. I think this story has interesting elements. But you're right that people are likely to get riled up, which I didn't think of. If you hadn't quoted it I'd delete it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin swan Posted February 14, 2021 Report Share Posted February 14, 2021 happy to oblige ...! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Merkel Posted February 14, 2021 Report Share Posted February 14, 2021 Poof! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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