Credible, ‘horrifying’ sexual-abuse accounts at Curtis Institute of Music, law firm finds

[PhilipKT]

1 hour ago, Violadamore said:

Prurient advertising, for anything mainstream, seldom originates with the performers.  The studio execs and marketing/distribution pukes force it on you. 

Yup.  Please, people, let's stay narrowly focused on the OP subject. 

The difference, is that in this case she is selling herself, she is not merely, the spokesperson for Pepsi or whatever, She is marketing her self, and therefore she is in charge of the image she chooses to present.

Come to think of it, how would one market one’s performance of Bach? 
My own Bach Is highly individual, but I’m a guy, and an old guy at that, and my sex appeal days left long long ago. Hmmm. 
if you’re sexy, why not, but that’s beside the point. You’re not selling sex appeal, you’re selling a unique take on some music history, and I would prefer to focus on that than on the fact that your attire reveals a little bit more skin than usual. 

BTW @not telling It cheapens every argument to resort to insult. Your dismissive comment about “old white men” is a poor reflection on you. Please refrain.

Sincerely, an old white man.

Edited September 29, 2020 by PhilipKT

[Violadamore]

33 minutes ago, PhilipKT said:

The difference, is that in this case she is selling herself, she is not merely, the spokesperson for Pepsi or whatever, She is marketing her self, and therefore she is in charge of the image she chooses to present.

Don't kid yourself. There are agents, partners, and backers involved,  "guiding you". 

[Rue]

She also has her own label.

[PhilipKT]

23 minutes ago, Violadamore said:

Don't kid yourself. There are agents, partners, and backers involved,  "guiding you". 

Sure, but she also has, in addition to her own thoughts, others advocating other things. Both shoulders are occupied...otherwise we would fall over.

[Ganymede Piggot]

is there even a secretary or janitor who is working there who was there when she was a student?  what does she want at this point?  bring ppl to their knees who were in high school somewhere at the time?  transpose "systemic" something that happened for a few years long ago to the present to fire up the twitterverse?  if not, then put a dead body in jail?  yeah, the '80s were rough...

[Stephen Fine]

Bill, it's all very well-documented what she wanted at the start of all this, what she wanted through the process, and what she wants now. Why the sarcastic tone?  If you really want to know, figure it out.  

(HINT HINT: Do you think that sexual abuse in music schools has stopped after 1990?  Do you think Curtis was the only school?.)

As I cautioned in the first two or three threads on this topic, psychoanalysis by album cover is pretty risky if you're hoping for accuracy.

Using sex to sell albums in 1996 isn't very strange... Perhaps you contrast her album cover with Hahn's in your head, they came out roughly the same time.  Remember... Hahn was 16 and St. John was 26.  Looking at it now, juxtaposing the staid title Bach Works for Violin Solo with the nude photo... it makes a solid artistic statement.  You could think about the way that Bach leaves us naked as performers.  Also the fact that sex sells and that we are performance artists as well as musical artists.  I don't know... I remember when it came out, it shocked me.  I was in 6th or 7th grade and the Classical music world was talking about it.  I was a pretty traditional/conservative kid and this seemed like a rock n' roll album cover on a Bach album.  But I think that was part of her point...

I went back just now to reread the old threads.  Yikes.  A lot of the discussion was centered around her credibility and our credulousness.  There are a few posters here who owe a few others of us apologies.  I'm not holding my breath though.

[not telling]

1. Bill: Calm down, Methuzzullah. I haven't been a crazy teenager for a few years.  Also, you are all missing my meaning. Philip KT, and others...apologies...I was probably not easy to understand, even though I think I'm absolutely transparent (I make this mistake often). No. I don't think "old white men" cause all of the problems. Where did I say that? I didn't. I more or less said it's an unfair characterization your demographic gets in our current cultural moment, until you start pulling out mysogynistic knee slappers and whatever else. I am on Maestronet a lot; obviously I like hearing what the boomers think. I often think your generation has its $hit together. I hope you're better than your sexual joke made at the expense of Hilary Hahn, which also mocked the situation. That is: the systemic mysogyny through all of the world...in the entertainment industry and classical music included, which allows (mostly) male teachers at elite conservatories to rape (usually) female students with absolute impunity. The situation which women might be a bit sensitive about here...?  Do you have empathy for, say, your female colleagues and students? Or post a condemnation of the institutions that allow this to happen and ignore survivors? Heck, express surprise that this could happen (I could find it somewhat plausible that, being a man and not a rapist yoursslf, you really didn't know how it is for women)?  No. You post to talk about a world-class violinist and all-around awesome human, not to mention beautiful and with a skyscraping iq, like she is nothing more than a girl with a nice ass who gave you what you wanted. It's what someone like you is expected to do, because you're a boomer. I mean, that's the myth. Which you then made reality. Isn't that what I said? It's what I meant. I don't know you and maybe shouldn't post something like this, but honestly I feel like your joke was hugely inappropriate. Just disappointing.

To uncle duke, whose post I didn't see at first,

I am not sure if you are comparing St John's situation she was in at 14, and for the next 35 years as she was seeking vindication, to sex work, but if so, nope.  Her career would have suffered due to her speaking out about her victimization, maybe due to Brodsky's influence, but she founded her own label and sold a metric shit-ton of albums because she got naked (the success of her first album made her own label possible).  Okay. But I don't agree.  I don't think her "sexy" albums are a form of prostitution, any more than it's prostitution for a company ceo to run a marathon to raise money for a nonprofit.  But I think something about the photos made me think she was a survivor.  I can't describe what. And I'm not a pearl clutcher. It was just an observation.

I am not even slightly inclined toward work in Sonic, Hooters, or worse, since you asked. Yuck. No amount of free booze would make that possible.  Fun fact, a relative took my son to Hooters to ogle the extra-flirtatious waitresses, and I couldn't do anything about it or even express outrage, because I need the child care. I am not actually sure that my kid noticed that anything was different.  But I don't support that kind of indoctrination of children, mine or anyone's. Could it be I have more of a moral problem with Hooters than actual sex work. Crazy, I know. I'll unpack that one with my therapist someday.

Rue: I am not offended by anything Lara St. John has done. I believe I could recognize that survivor by her choice of imagery, my original point. The iconic cd cover where she covered her breasts with her violin, that wasn't her label. Still, I say it was her choice too, the label didn't have to sell her solo Bach with that photo, but it was effective and she was willing. I don't think she would have been in that photo if not for Brodsky screwing up her mind and her life. But these images...Right choice? Wrong choice? Not my call. And not offensive! I just kind of could tell something damaged her.

Fwiw Cardi B is offensive to me. I wanted to hear her amazing anthem of female power that everyone started squawking over a month ago.. I wish I could unhear it. My belief is that we cannot, as women, co-opt or claim the language of male sexual violence toward women, turn it on men, and call that our liberation. I know for sure that's not the world I want. I find her so disgusting and offensive, even if some of the lines are clever. The wordplay. Of course, that's how evil catches on. Also, whoever produced that video threw satanic imagery all through it. There's that. Upon further reflection, it was appropriate, considering the lyrics. I don't really understand popular culture, although I am aware that this isn't even the most vulgar song I've ever heard, but it seems like the world has gone completely mad when that sort of thing is being celebrated.  Are you offended? Number one on Billboard for quite some time. Obviously this is far from the topic but you brought her up.

In case you're seriously trying to compare the two, I can't agree at all. I don't think Lara St John did anything wrong.

[Ganymede Piggot]

3 hours ago, Stephen Fine said:

Bill, it's all very well-documented what she wanted at the start of all this, what she wanted through the process, and what she wants now. Why the sarcastic tone?  If you really want to know, figure it out.  

(HINT HINT: Do you think that sexual abuse in music schools has stopped after 1990?  Do you think Curtis was the only school?.)

i'm 100% positive it still happens in places -- when folks stop committing crimes, let me know.  the '80s and schools were a special time for that kind of thing, though...  not coming out then is (may be) part of that.   regardless, attacking somebody who is no longer around to defend themselves is like attacking somebody in a wheelchair, to me.  

[not telling]

21 minutes ago, Bill Merkel said:

i'm 100% positive it still happens in places -- when folks stop committing crimes, let me know.  the '80s and schools were a special time for that kind of thing, though...  coming out now instead of then is (may be) part of it.   regardless, attacking somebody who is no longer around to defend themselves is like attacking somebody in a wheelchair, to me.  

You clearly don't understand the situation. She came out with these allegations when she was 15. She continued to speak on her experience for 35 years and she isn't going to stop until the culture change is real. 

Also, people in wheelchairs can be real jerks. They're people too. 

[Ganymede Piggot]

Just now, not telling said:

You clearly don't understand the situation.

i understand your situation

[Violadamore]

52 minutes ago, not telling said:

Also, people in wheelchairs can be real jerks. They're people too. 

Don't forget to say something nasty about Mom and apple pie while you're at it.   Were you inspired by the level of discourse in the debate last night?    

[not telling]

9 minutes ago, Bill Merkel said:

i understand your situation

Really? I don't understand your situation.

[Ganymede Piggot]

^my situation is i think it's part of a larger brick throwing and looting thing to you.  am i right?

[not telling]

Hell no. One of my favorite drivers is about to be fired tor telling some campus protesters that all lives matter while they boxed in campus traffic for 3 hours. KU is demanding it. The protesters were upset that he wouldn't say "Black Lives Matter". Guess how much good trouble the protesters were in? None. I know you've seen the BLM platform, as have I. I don't support it either. However, I do believe that all lives matter and I consider myself anti-racism. I also don't support fascism where I see it. 

Can I ask, what does this line of thinking have to do with demands for justice for survivors and renewed hopes that my own daughter will never experience rape or mysogyny? That's what this is really about, for me.

 

 

[Ganymede Piggot]

^the best thing for you would be raise your daughter to feel like she can tell you anything without you ever coming down on her over it.  that and a gun purse

 

[not telling]

1 hour ago, Violadamore said:

Don't forget to say something nasty about Mom and apple pie while you're at it.   Were you inspired by the level of discourse in the debate last night?    

Well what do you think? I seriously doubt that disabled people like to be compared with dead people and treated like non persons in society, but it happens all the time. Not surprisingly, some people don't react to constant discrimination and displays of ignorance by becoming kinder, more grateful people and laughing about it all. So sure enough, I'd slap a person in a wheelchair. I'd do whatever I had to, if I had to. 

Yes. All he meant is that Brodsky can't fight back-he and his cohort are dead. Fine. He was still ruining lives 10 years ago. The attack is on the institution, not him.

 

 

[Ganymede Piggot]

there's an old adage that gossip destroys three people.  the teller, the listener, and the subject since he's not present to defend himself.  but please don't think the point is comparing ppl who aren't present to dead ppl though...

[Rue]

This isn't about Brodsky. He's only one man. Dead. Doesn't factor into it anymore. This is about an institution failing in it's mandate - to protect the children given to their care.

Why bring such things up 35 years later? Why not? The time is ripe for such discussions. Let's ensure history doesn't repeat itself. Wouldn't that be a pleasant change? 

If that philosophy doesn't sway anyone,  how about fee for service? When parents pay $$$ to have their children educated, I doubt they consider sexual abuse to be part of the curriculum. I think all those parents should demand a refund. The service they paid for, in good faith, was flawed, resulting in damage to their children. What is damage to a child worth?

And the more I think about a comparison between the two female musicians, the more apt it becomes.

 

[Violadamore]

56 minutes ago, Rue said:

If that philosophy doesn't sway anyone,  how about fee for service? When parents pay $$$ to have their children educated, I doubt they consider sexual abuse to be part of the curriculum. I think all those parents should demand a refund. The service they paid for, in good faith, was flawed, resulting in damage to their children. What is damage to a child worth?

You, I of course agree with.  You don't ramble about Hooters and deliberately vile music. 

I'd like to see the institutions held accountable for the product they provide. 

Comedy cinema often contains more verité than drama does.........

[not telling]

VdA, you know that a lot of those parents knew something was happening too, at the time.  But they didn't work that hard to get their child there, for nothing! That is how sick this society is. 

You got me, I ramble. But why is everything a joke to you?

[Violadamore]

1 hour ago, not telling said:

VdA, you know that a lot of those parents knew something was happening too, at the time.  But they didn't work that hard to get their child there, for nothing! That is how sick this society is. 

You got me, I ramble. But why is everything a joke to you?

I laugh to avoid weeping. 

[PhilipKT]

57 minutes ago, not telling said:

VdA, you know that a lot of those parents knew something was happening too, at the time.  But they didn't work that hard to get their child there, for nothing! That is how sick this society is. 

You got me, I ramble. But why is everything a joke to you?

That is a completely unsubstantiated claim, and ridiculous besides. You’re clearly suggesting that parents who suspected something were deliberately turning a blind eye because “they didn’t work that hard to get their child there for nothing.”

That’s ridiculous. 

Your assertion that certain album covers reveal an abusive past is also unsubstantiated. It’s not impossible, but you offered no supporting evidence, and implied that if only we were not old white men, we would see how right you are.

I know nothing about you, not even your gender, except that you have a child. However, I get really tired of people making wild claims and then accusing me and others of missing the wisdom because we are “old white men” Sometimes, for variety’s sake, we are “ANGRY old white men.”
I’m not angry, though It does begin to get one’s goat after a time. All the while making claims that distract one from a very real and undeniable problem.

 

[not telling]

19 hours ago, PhilipKT said:

That is a completely unsubstantiated claim, and ridiculous besides. You’re clearly suggesting that parents who suspected something were deliberately turning a blind eye because “they didn’t work that hard to get their child there for nothing.”

That’s ridiculous. 

Your assertion that certain album covers reveal an abusive past is also unsubstantiated. It’s not impossible, but you offered no supporting evidence, and implied that if only we were not old white men, we would see how right you are.

I know nothing about you, not even your gender, except that you have a child. However, I get really tired of people making wild claims and then accusing me and others of missing the wisdom because we are “old white men” Sometimes, for variety’s sake, we are “ANGRY old white men.”
I’m not angry, though It does begin to get one’s goat after a time. All the while making claims that distract one from a very real and undeniable problem.

 

Nope. You're misunderstanding me on nearly everything. I shouldn't have brought up the creepy feeling I always got from some of these pictures. Granted. I always do this, and it screws up the debate. I know it's unfounded. It's a feeling. 

More unfounded conjecture: nothing would have happened to Hilary Hahn because her father was there all the time. That's well-known, what a constant presence he was. He would wait outside her lessons. He was there when she signed cds. She did not tour alone. She was his child, before and after her fame. You can bet Brodsky knew that too. Hilary auditioned for him at ten years old and he said of her, while gushing about her talent, "for the first time in my life, I said, 'I want this girl'." Yeah. I bet he did. So creepy if you add the creepy element that was, as it turns out, definitely there. Thank God she had a great father who, I'm guessing, protected her from Brodsky's impulses just by being a fixture. 

For Lara, the concession was that she got a different teacher after the rape. Problem solved!  Apparently her family didn't know why. Her brother still had lessons with Brodsky and was utterly puzzled, he later recalled. It's a big deal to switch teachers, but she was probably good at talking her way around that one. 

There are several others with substantiated claims. There are probably more who weren't involved in the recent action Curtis alum are involved in. 

Its simple. Being a parent, you must realize when there are changes in your child. You talk to other parents. There are rumors.  You yourself know stage parents. You know how hard the kids work, how hard they are pushed. I have heard enough stories of sexual abuse to guess that some parents knew. At first, you chalk it up to a cultural difference. As a Russian Jew, he is simply very physical. Yes, you think you saw him pat your child on the thigh, ok, that was weird, something you think is not ideal, but it's a full-ride and he is a famous pedagogue. If he were doing anything really inappropriate he wouldn't be there. And there's the simple fact that if he snaps his fingers the child is out. I mean these kinds of knowing and justifications. I don't believe everyone thought there would be rape, I mean that some things were certainly seen and overlooked for decades by many many parents.

On the scale of 1-10 of crazy, this is a 40: I knew a woman whose own mother did nothing about her father and brother and uncles raping her for a decade, because they would lose standing in the community if it got out. She sent her brother to prison and her mother didn't speak to her for awhile over that. They had to move. It was just so embarassing. That can happen, it did happen to her. If you heard these types of stories, you might believe that a career being at stake would have been sufficient for some "parents" to be silent.

On the old white men thing, I didn't mean it, you didn't understand, it wasn't directed toward you. I explained the meaning. Still don't see the point? You don't have to read anything I write, but don't jump to conclusions or be self-referential about something that was a response to a disgusting joke someone else made. Well, I didn't like it. No one else said anything. I probably have no sense of humor anymore.

[l33tplaya]

@PhilipKT "in the day. Wagner was literally no different from the normal person. The enlightened person who accepted the difference between a protestant and a Jew without problem was very much the exception to the rule. It is wrong to judge the past by the standards of today."

NO. Never. He was quite different. 1) It was never OK;  there may have been more people, or people more open about being anti-Semitic, but it was never OK, and never the majority back then. 2) When human beings are not treated correctly, the standards of whatever age do not matter.  Tempted to make a straw man argument here masquerading as a Hobson's choice, butwon't. The concept of not applying standards of one age to another only matters for mores, not for gross mis-treatment.  That is the argument that the BLM movement is (or should be) trying to make, not the voices of some "free radicals," pun intended. But I digress.

For almost everyone else: Most of you have no idea of what sexual trauma can do to a person, especially when they are not believed, are helpless, and the trauma is persistent. A very close firend of mine has made a life long study of sexual trauma and treating its effects: what Laura did, and is going through, is more typical than not of past trauma. Who is to say she would or wouldn't have done that album cover had there been no abuse? And yet, hyper sexualization is a frequent byproduct of past trauma. 

What might get Laura either large sums or at least the recognition of a horrible past wrong to be corrected is that she had the eggs to complain, repeatedly, and not only did the institution not protect her, they denied there was a problem,  proceeded to either cover it up, or at least ignore the problem, and again, did so repeatedly.  So the instiutution was put on notice, but chose to ignore it.  It has nothing to do with the fact that the perpetrator may not be around now. 

 

[VicM]

4 hours ago, l33tplaya said:

@PhilipKT "in the day. Wagner was literally no different from the normal person. The enlightened person who accepted the difference between a protestant and a Jew without problem was very much the exception to the rule. It is wrong to judge the past by the standards of today."

NO. Never. He was quite different. 1) It was never OK;  there may have been more people, or people more open about being anti-Semitic, but it was never OK, and never the majority back then. 2) When human beings are not treated correctly, the standards of whatever age do not matter.  Tempted to make a straw man argument here masquerading as a Hobson's choice, butwon't. The concept of not applying standards of one age to another only matters for mores, not for gross mis-treatment.  That is the argument that the BLM movement is (or should be) trying to make, not the voices of some "free radicals," pun intended. But I digress.

 

 

You are talking total nonsense. You have absolutely no idea how antisemitic Europeans used to be. This is not only documented very well but to be antisemtic was an obligation on most of Europe. It tool a lot education to start to adress this and a lot of decent people to do this education and give the right example. The Jews did not have a very hard time in Europe ( and Russia !!! ) because 3-4 people did not like them. The Jews suffered horribly because MOST people were indoctrinated to not like and to hate them. Do not minimalize the problems other peoples had with your social justice nonsense.