GeorgeH Posted September 23, 2020 Report Posted September 23, 2020 The Report is in: "A months-long investigation by the law firm Cozen O’Connor into “horrifying accounts of rape and repeated sexual abuse” from violinist Lara St. John while she was a student at the Curtis Institute of Music has found her claims to be credible. A report by the firm detailing her experience, as well as separate claims of abuse by about two dozen other students over a period of decades, was unanimously accepted Tuesday by the Curtis board." And: "St. John said Tuesday night that she was pleased with the findings of the report, 'but it took a lot of life-force to make this happen. Not only that, but many newspaper articles and outraged alumni. It took way more than it should have and it shouldn’t have taken 35 years. That said, I am glad at last they have admitted their wrongdoing.'" https://www.inquirer.com/news/curtis-institute-report-sexual-abuse-lara-st-john-philadelphia-20200922.html
Ganymede Piggot Posted September 23, 2020 Report Posted September 23, 2020 how long before you're screaming for your own thread to be shut down?
Violadamore Posted September 23, 2020 Report Posted September 23, 2020 Without the paywall: https://www.curtis.edu/investigative-report https://slippedisc.com/2020/09/curtis-admits-to-ignoring-student-rape-among-other-abuses/ Some interesting background, Lebrecht channeling an article (with an unforgettable title) written by Robert Fitzpatrick, former Dean at Curtis: https://slippedisc.com/2019/07/661409/
PhilipKT Posted September 26, 2020 Report Posted September 26, 2020 (edited) Deleted Edited September 29, 2020 by PhilipKT
Violadamore Posted September 26, 2020 Report Posted September 26, 2020 3 hours ago, PhilipKT said: Ah, college days...wasted on the young... Yup. But I'd hardly class hijinks among the undergrads with faculty misconduct and administrative collusion such as Lara St. John experienced.
not telling Posted September 28, 2020 Report Posted September 28, 2020 I knew something happened to her. Otherwise she would not be photographed half-naked and in sexual ecstasy for half of her album covers and promo photos over the past 30 years. I'm not talking about her right to express herself, but why she did in that way (beyond being marketing genius, which that also was). If anyone, especially men, choose to argue that this isn't a behavior or proclivity associated with sexual abuse and trauma I would say you're lying to yourself about what you can actually see clearly. But it's not a debate I'm trying to get into. My heart is really breaking that Curtis Institute ignored child rape happening on campus. How long was she getting lessons from her rapist? Curtis knew...did her parents? Is Hilary Hahn involved in the class action? Many questions... I also hope that this accusation becomes Brodsky's only legacy.
violinnewb Posted September 28, 2020 Report Posted September 28, 2020 7 hours ago, not telling said: I knew something happened to her. Otherwise she would not be photographed half-naked and in sexual ecstasy for half of her album covers and promo photos over the past 30 years. I'm not talking about her right to express herself, but why she did in that way (beyond being marketing genius, which that also was). If anyone, especially men, choose to argue that this isn't a behavior or proclivity associated with sexual abuse and trauma I would say you're lying to yourself about what you can actually see clearly. But it's not a debate I'm trying to get into. My heart is really breaking that Curtis Institute ignored child rape happening on campus. How long was she getting lessons from her rapist? Curtis knew...did her parents? Is Hilary Hahn involved in the class action? Many questions... I also hope that this accusation becomes Brodsky's only legacy. 1. YES! This hits it on the nail! For naysayers that say she appeared half-naked on album covers and that shows HER sexual proclivities...These people are neglecting the cause and effect reasoning. The CAUSE may have been that at a very young age, the abuse, which a young female may think is society's norm, becomes subconsciously and consciously ingrained in an impressionable young artist. The EFFECT is not knowing any better because of the abuse. 2. I disagree with the last statement. I do not believe that our emotions should dictate what is history and what is not. Brodsky, although he is an after thought to me, may have had a tremendous musical influence on many. The objective product of his skill set should not necessarily be forgotten or shunned. I think that Bill Cosby was a horrible man for what he continued to do to women. That doesn't take away from how fondly I remember the Cosby Show and its effects on me as an adult. Separate the person from the product.
not telling Posted September 28, 2020 Report Posted September 28, 2020 Yeah...I dunno, I'm feeling pretty comfortable cancelling someone who rapes the children he is supposed to be teaching. Harvey Weinstein and Bill Cosby and all of these people who rape as a casual activity. Trump. All of them should burn. They deserve nothing more and nothing less. Objective? Sure. The history is still objective...the influence on culture etc. is still there...we can just agree, I hope, that who these people we put up on pedestals objectively are is what matters. Bill Cosby was my ideal black dad too. Don't get me wrong. But the monster he really was, is what I'll remember most, and his misdeeds shouldn't be omitted from any history if history is objective. Right? It would be a big departure from the past, when we shrug about the unpleasant bits and celebrate the good, as with Leonard Bernstein and his love for boys, and James Levine too, both well-known facts. It's rare to hear those facts mentioned in the open, or even in an article about the great men they still seem to be to some.
Ganymede Piggot Posted September 28, 2020 Report Posted September 28, 2020 josh bell's father worked at the kinsey institute, which did the first academic studies of all this
violinnewb Posted September 28, 2020 Report Posted September 28, 2020 1 hour ago, not telling said: Yeah...I dunno, I'm feeling pretty comfortable cancelling someone who rapes the children he is supposed to be teaching. Harvey Weinstein and Bill Cosby and all of these people who rape as a casual activity. Trump. All of them should burn. They deserve nothing more and nothing less. Objective? Sure. The history is still objective...the influence on culture etc. is still there...we can just agree, I hope, that who these people we put up on pedestals objectively are is what matters. Bill Cosby was my ideal black dad too. Don't get me wrong. But the monster he really was, is what I'll remember most, and his misdeeds shouldn't be omitted from any history if history is objective. Right? It would be a big departure from the past, when we shrug about the unpleasant bits and celebrate the good, as with Leonard Bernstein and his love for boys, and James Levine too, both well-known facts. It's rare to hear those facts mentioned in the open, or even in an article about the great men they still seem to be to some. Oh no...don't forget and cancel the misdeeds. No no no! Look at it this way...I personally think Michael Jackson was creepy af and quite possibly a pedophile. However, I can't stop myself from singing Billie Jean every once in awhile. Not trying to make light of things. I have been a victim of harassment, racism, you name it. But after some time passed, I let the anger go a little. Just a little.
PhilipKT Posted September 28, 2020 Report Posted September 28, 2020 (edited) Deleted Edited September 28, 2020 by PhilipKT
not telling Posted September 28, 2020 Report Posted September 28, 2020 13 minutes ago, PhilipKT said: (I apologize for attempting to inject a bit of levity.) Regarding using sex appeal to sell product: It’s been going on as long as there has been print advertising. I don’t think that indicates anything negative about a person’s past experience. Music is Aural. It has nothing to do with the eyes. Nonetheless, on YouTube, I see countless cello videos of pretty boys playing(and playing beautifully) but The camera is focusing on facial closeups rather than on the fingers and bow(which is where the visual interest lies) on the grounds that sex appeal sells. I’m not taking anything from her experience, but if I saw an album being marketed with a sexy pose, I wouldn’t immediately assume it was because of past abuse. Yeah, that's fair and like I said it was definitely a successful marketing ploy for her in particular. You can bet that thousands of teenage boys were introduced to Bach by way of Lara because of her album covers. Men in general. But I think that based on what I know now I definitely wonder why when I see someone using sex constantly to sell, and you should too. I thought her case was curious, and the full context is not surprising to me. I think it's important to think critically about cause and effect because there's always a cause (causes) ...thats all Im saying. In this example that cause wasn't just boundless sexual freedom, a large part of it was that she was damaged and she had some confusion around her sexuality and her love of violin playing stemming from her being forced by those she trusted to not resolve the abuse when it occurred, let alone be protected from abuse by those trusted adults. This all took years from her life. I mean it couldn't be more obvious. Maybe that's what passes for sexual freedom though. Apparently that's often as far as the reptillian male brain gets with thinking on cause and effect when a sexy pose is spotted. No offense. My attempt at levity.
uncle duke Posted September 28, 2020 Report Posted September 28, 2020 19 minutes ago, not telling said: 1. This all took years from her life. I mean it couldn't be more obvious. 2. Maybe that's what passes for sexual freedom though. 3. Apparently that's often as far as the reptillian male brain gets with thinking on cause and effect when a sexy pose is spotted. No offense. My attempt at levity. How would you know that? When you were younger did you have thought of being a car hop at Sonic or working at Hooters and making it to showgirl status? No need to answer me but some girls like the dollars that can be made. Two hundred a day is possible and that's pretty good for eighteen and nineteen year old non educated, pretty women. I've been personally told before - "we don't love those men, we just love the money". I won't argue with that reasoning. I realize you girls stick together when times get tough or should. That's the way to solve a problem. Good for Ms. St. John for being strong enough to speak up. Hope she gets richer.
Violadamore Posted September 28, 2020 Report Posted September 28, 2020 Saying that educators should keep themselves above suspicion despite massive temptation is one thing. I'd personally endorse a Federal legal ban on universities protecting faculty-student sex as a form of academic freedom in their rules and employment contracts. I've seen no good come of this "freedom". None. And if you think that it's only male profs who abuse the privilege, you're incredibly naive. OTOH, turning this thread into a referendum on sexuality in general isn't going to accomplish much besides start fights to no purpose.
not telling Posted September 29, 2020 Report Posted September 29, 2020 I hear you but feel like a Phd student and his advisor having drinks and whatever else is very, very different from a 14-y.o. child being goaded to accept the advances of a career professional in his 50's, not in every way but in many ways. Yet anyone can see it's not good for a university to condone that sort of thing as normal just because it constantly happens. I always had some sort of gut feeling that this type of photo wasn't about pleasure or joy-it just seems dark and creepily sexually performative to me. There's no way to express that without sounding like I'm passing judgment on something I think she did "wrong", and that is far from my intention. All I can say is that the allegations didn't surprise me. Lara St. John has been through a lot and I am grateful that she is speaking up for the thousands who live with psychosexual manipulation from a trusted person in a position to teach and guide, or to destroy dreams. The serial rapist bastard threatened her place at Curtis and therefore her whole career if she didn't play along-and her brother's future too. So she did. It is exactly how Weinstein and so many others operated and continue to do. She publicly played out this type of sexuality for years; maybe she thought the world expected this and needed this from her as her abuser did, as pennance for her deserved success. I can't know what she actually thought. All I know is that this type of photo will get a reaction from everyone...and sales... yes, she easily bought her Guad with those ill-gotten gains. The price was, in my opinion, too high...but that is only one opinion. Maybe this is an image she felt empowered by. I hope so.
Ganymede Piggot Posted September 29, 2020 Report Posted September 29, 2020 6 hours ago, not telling said: That's me watching Hilary Hahn's Quarantine Butt Workout video
not telling Posted September 29, 2020 Report Posted September 29, 2020 That's hilarious. Hey, I bet Hilary Hahn remembers Jascha Brodsky from her years at Curtis, so there's an extra layer of humor there. Someone should link her here so she can have a laugh. She will really love your joke! It will be so fun for her to think about you too. I hope she can hold down her vomit. If you old white guys have a problem with being unfairly labelled the enemies of social progress, don't actually be that. Have some respect.
Strad O Various Jr. Posted September 29, 2020 Report Posted September 29, 2020 No one ever said violin makers can't be chauvinist pigs, did they??
gowan Posted September 29, 2020 Report Posted September 29, 2020 There is an interesting cultural problem related to artists who demonstrate despicable or criminal behavior. Wagner was a hateful anti-semite, Caravaggio was a murderer. Both were great artists. So the question is does immoral character or behavior make their artistic creations unacceptable works of art? In the context of this thread must Bernstein's conducting and composing and Levine's opera and symphony conducting be tainted because of immoral behavior? Must we refuse to listen to Wagner's music and reject enjoying looking at Caravaggio's paintings? The philosophical issue is whether works of art by immoral or criminal artists somehow embody the artists' despicable actions or beliefs. Regardless of this philosophical quandary, no doubt the horrible actions must be rejected and punished when possible.
violinnewb Posted September 29, 2020 Report Posted September 29, 2020 18 minutes ago, gowan said: There is an interesting cultural problem related to artists who demonstrate despicable or criminal behavior. Wagner was a hateful anti-semite, Caravaggio was a murderer. Both were great artists. So the question is does immoral character or behavior make their artistic creations unacceptable works of art? In the context of this thread must Bernstein's conducting and composing and Levine's opera and symphony conducting be tainted because of immoral behavior? Must we refuse to listen to Wagner's music and reject enjoying looking at Caravaggio's paintings? The philosophical issue is whether works of art by immoral or criminal artists somehow embody the artists' despicable actions or beliefs. Regardless of this philosophical quandary, no doubt the horrible actions must be rejected and punished when possible. Exactly.
Ganymede Piggot Posted September 29, 2020 Report Posted September 29, 2020 4 hours ago, not telling said: If you old white guys ... What about you crazy teenagers?
Rue Posted September 29, 2020 Report Posted September 29, 2020 I don't think it's only 'white guys' that are a problem... Lara St. John was exposed to inexplicable behaviour on the part of the adults who should have been nuturing and protecting her. She got through it. She's a survivor. If she then, as an adult, used her sexuality to her benefit - more power to her. Whether her choices were a direct result of her experiences or not - they became her choices. Her early album covers - while overtly sensual - are not offensive, unless you want them to be. No line was crossed. Which is more than I can say about the current award winning hit - by Cardi B. Is it offensive? Do I want to be offended? Yet she's getting accolades for being a " powerhouse... of female sexuality, independence, and dominance". So? What's the difference? The genre? The culture? Education level? Affluence? What's the same? Being abused as a child?
PhilipKT Posted September 29, 2020 Report Posted September 29, 2020 2 hours ago, Rue said: I don't think it's only 'white guys' that are a problem... Lara St. John was exposed to inexplicable behaviour on the part of the adults who should have been nuturing and protecting her. She got through it. She's a survivor. If she then, as an adult, used her sexuality to her benefit - more power to her. Whether her choices were a direct result of her experiences or not - they became her choices. Her early album covers - while overtly sensual - are not offensive, unless you want them to be. No line was crossed. Which is more than I can say about the current award winning hit - by Cardi B. Is it offensive? Do I want to be offended? Yet she's getting accolades for being a " powerhouse... of female sexuality, independence, and dominance". So? What's the difference? The genre? The culture? Education level? Affluence? What's the same? Being abused as a child? You are brilliant. The album cover shared by Nottelling, didn’t bother me a bit. I also didn’t find it particularly provocative, especially given modern mores, which are very permissive. Reading the back-and-forth, it reinforces that what we get out of something is due in large part to what we bring to that something. That album cover isn't inappropriate in the slightest, although she is selling the sizzle instead of the steak, she’s just using her looks to sell product, and as I said earlier it is impossible to make a conclusion about her past, based on that picture. I have seen a lot of artwork that is definitely and deliberately provocative, and in very bad taste, But it doesn’t instantly make me think that the person who has produced that has suffered anything as a child, and I don’t think it is logical to make such a conclusion based solely on that single reaction.
PhilipKT Posted September 29, 2020 Report Posted September 29, 2020 6 hours ago, gowan said: There is an interesting cultural problem related to artists who demonstrate despicable or criminal behavior. Wagner was a hateful anti-semite, Caravaggio was a murderer. Both were great artists. So the question is does immoral character or behavior make their artistic creations unacceptable works of art? In the context of this thread must Bernstein's conducting and composing and Levine's opera and symphony conducting be tainted because of immoral behavior? Must we refuse to listen to Wagner's music and reject enjoying looking at Caravaggio's paintings? The philosophical issue is whether works of art by immoral or criminal artists somehow embody the artists' despicable actions or beliefs. Regardless of this philosophical quandary, no doubt the horrible actions must be rejected and punished when possible. I know nothing about Caravaggio, but I know quite a lot about Wagner. How was he different from the norm? Anti-Semitism Was accepted and endorsed In the entire Caucasian world back in the day. Wagner was literally no different from the normal person. The enlightened person who accepted the difference between a protestant and a Jew without problem was very much the exception to the rule. It is wrong to judge the past by the standards of today. However, It is also important to stay on the topic, which is totally different from what Wagner did or didn’t. I disagree that St John’s past resulted in her using sex appeal to sell product. It is a claim without evidence, and to believe it is to believe that every prurient bit of advertising has the same source. But that remains tangential. She suffered threats and more, and the institution that was supposed to protect her did not, and that is the main thing.
Violadamore Posted September 29, 2020 Report Posted September 29, 2020 36 minutes ago, PhilipKT said: However, It is also important to stay on the topic, which is totally different from what Wagner did or didn’t. I disagree that St John’s past resulted in her using sex appeal to sell product. It is a claim without evidence, and to believe it is to believe that every prurient bit of advertising has the same source. Prurient advertising, for anything mainstream, seldom originates with the performers. The studio execs and marketing/distribution pukes force it on you. 36 minutes ago, PhilipKT said: She suffered threats and more, and the institution that was supposed to protect her did not, and that is the main thing. Yup. Please, people, let's stay narrowly focused on the OP subject.
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