Three fake Voirin violin bows... or ARE they?


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Here’s what I see: the stamps are in different places, the ebony rings are different sizes( the bottom one is out of alignment) the button collars are different, though the top and bottom appear similar, the throat looks similar in the top and bottom bows, but not the middle frog, which looks quite different from the other two. I can’t say anything about the heads because I don’t know how to look.

what do you folks see? 

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5 minutes ago, martin swan said:

I see someone with a very annoying habit of flagging up stuff for sale at auction on a busy specialist forum :lol:

If you were interested in buying yourself it's the last thing you would do, so I wonder what your motivation is. 

haha yes indeed... perhaps a lot of jobless broke musicians (speaking from personal experience) with no money to buy and just picking the brains as Bill said

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2 hours ago, martin swan said:

I see someone with a very annoying habit of flagging up stuff for sale at auction on a busy specialist forum :lol:

If you were interested in buying yourself it's the last thing you would do, so I wonder what your motivation is. 

Martin, I wish you would take me at face value. I’m really not interested in bidding, for lots of reasons, but I really am interested in learning. I’m sure these are not genuine, as I said they are from the estate of two major players, and I’m sure all the good stuff has already been picked over by experts.

This is an interesting opportunity to look at three bows which are all allegedly Voirin bows, To compare the things that I mentioned, and to mention things that I did not see. I promise I’m not trying to get free advice preparatory to sniping those tasty tidbits at auction. 

In my post about the Tubbs, Someone asked you about the angle of the grain through the head  and it made me look closely at my Gillet Bows, but I can’t see for sure.

But that’s the kind of thing I’m interested in learning.

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2 hours ago, Bill Merkel said:

^identification self-training.  it's interesting.  useful to many of us.  picking the brains of experts

Yes exactly. For instance it seems to me that the stamp would be applied at the same point in the process, while being held in the same place in the same way in the same device, And would logically therefore be approximately in the same place on each stick. That might be incorrect, but it is logical, and that was the first thing I noticed when I looked at the sticks

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1 minute ago, PhilipKT said:

But that’s the kind of thing I’m interested in learning.

Then spend the $100 necessary to subscribe to the Tariso database to look at authentic examples. Trying to study violins and bows by looking at eBay listings is possibly the worst way to learn about anything authentic.

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8 hours ago, PhilipKT said:

Martin, I wish you would take me at face value. I’m really not interested in bidding, for lots of reasons, but I really am interested in learning.

 

Philip, you are not taking me at face value :lol: 

It's very clear that you're not interested in buying any of this stuff, since if you were, the last thing you would do would be to draw the entire violin community's attention to it.

You are absoloutely within your rights but it must be a source of considerable annoyance to some members here to have got all excited about some sleeping beauty in a country auction, only to have it flagged up on Maestronet. I'm sure that the Tubbs made an extra grand thanks to the publicity it got on this forum. All the more ironic since you genuinely don't have any financial interest in the matter.

As far as authenticity/identification etc. is concerned, I think you'll find the discussion flows freely once the sale is over, and if that's your general goal I would suggest posting after an auction has ended.

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5 hours ago, martin swan said:

Philip, you are not taking me at face value :lol: 

It's very clear that you're not interested in buying any of this stuff, since if you were, the last thing you would do would be to draw the entire violin community's attention to it.

You are absoloutely within your rights but it must be a source of considerable annoyance to some members here to have got all excited about some sleeping beauty in a country auction, only to have it flagged up on Maestronet. I'm sure that the Tubbs made an extra grand thanks to the publicity it got on this forum. All the more ironic since you genuinely don't have any financial interest in the matter.

As far as authenticity/identification etc. is concerned, I think you'll find the discussion flows freely once the sale is over, and if that's your general goal I would suggest posting after an auction has ended.

The reason it never occurred to me that I was advertising a sale by posting here, is because anyone in the world who is interested in such things is doing the same searches and looking at the same sites. I understand what you mean, but I’m not giving anything away by sharing here because anyone who cares has already found the same widgets.

However, I do take your point and will in future ask after the fact.

However, that said, do you mind weighing in regarding these bows. Certainly the middle one looks messy, the buttons don’t match and the stamps are in the wrong place?

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I agree with Phillip...once it's on-line, it's on-line.  The folks that are interested know it's there so I don't think posting a posting is going to do much one way or the other.

...er...unless Phillip is getting kick-backs from the Auction Houses...:lol::mellow::ph34r:

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In principle I agree, but it can (and I'm sure does) have an impact on other people's business.

For instance, if someone wants to buy something, what's to stop them from saying it's fake? Or just casting general doubt ...

If someone wants to undermine other dealers but can't actually bid themselves, what's to stop them from saying something is authentic and a great buy when it isn't?

So my point would be that you can't expect objective discussion of items offered for low reserves at non-specialist auctions. This is where many dealers make their living.

 

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1 hour ago, Rue said:

I agree with Phillip...once it's on-line, it's on-line.  The folks that are interested know it's there so I don't think posting a posting is going to do much one way or the other.

...er...unless Phillip is getting kick-backs from the Auction Houses...:lol::mellow::ph34r:

:Slipping Rue $10 under the table:

Thanks babe...

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3 hours ago, martin swan said:

In principle I agree, but it can (and I'm sure does) have an impact on other people's business.

For instance, if someone wants to buy something, what's to stop them from saying it's fake? Or just casting general doubt ...

If someone wants to undermine other dealers but can't actually bid themselves, what's to stop them from saying something is authentic and a great buy when it isn't?

So my point would be that you can't expect objective discussion of items offered for low reserves at non-specialist auctions. This is where many dealers make their living.

 

That is an excellent point, and I appreciate it. I am not overflowing with Guile, so things like that never occur to me.

ok... when the auction is over, THEN will you weigh in, just a bit?

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3 hours ago, martin swan said:

In principle I agree, but it can (and I'm sure does) have an impact on other people's business.

For instance, if someone wants to buy something, what's to stop them from saying it's fake? Or just casting general doubt ...

If someone wants to undermine other dealers but can't actually bid themselves, what's to stop them from saying something is authentic and a great buy when it isn't?

So my point would be that you can't expect objective discussion of items offered for low reserves at non-specialist auctions. This is where many dealers make their living.

 

I'm with Martin here.  With regard to venues other than eBay (and even with respect to the more responsible offerings on eBay) we need to be circumspect in what we say while bidding is in progress.  Recall that if curiosity is just killing you, you can PM those who might know something specific, without blurting it all over the forum.  :lol:

OTOH, I do see the need for rare exceptions if an item is egregious in some way, stolen violins and fakes of living makers (MN members in particular) that one might spot come to mind, but, IMHO, even then, a lot of PM's should fly back and forth before the matter is posted openly.  :)

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