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jandepora

Id violin - English / Scottish

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3 minutes ago, Strad O Various Jr. said:

Jacob Saunders actually is some kind of expert on baroque set up violins because he sells them.

How do you know that I sell anything?

I don't wish to be dragged ino others disputes

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30 minutes ago, Strad O Various Jr. said:

Not every violin has to look like a Stradivarius, I think any serious baroque player would be proud to own an instrument like this, original baroque violins in this good of a condition are exceedingly rare.

And yet the most successful models of the Baroque era are Stainer, Amati, Strad, Guarneri, Serafin etc.
All of which are intrinsically beautiful models, and none of which have a wasp waist, or bizarre proportions.

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I think this opinion doesn't help to this forum. Martin, as Jacobs, and many other are the great members and more experts here. They have seen more violins in his life than we all in 100 lifes.

Any idea or opinion about the violin is wellcome.

 

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2 minutes ago, jandepora said:

I think this opinion doesn't help to this forum.

Any idea or opinion about the violin is wellcome.

 

Agreed.

The neck joint will be original to the instrument. That method of a screw pocket in the neck can be seen in a number of original necks, and seems to be an evolution of the screw through from inside the body
The end blocks look like they are some sort of cedar or mahogany, which isn't typical, but the bulbous half moon shape is.

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3 minutes ago, Dave Slight said:

Agreed.

The neck joint will be original to the instrument. That method of a screw pocket in the neck can be seen in a number of original necks, and seems to be an evolution of the screw through from inside the body
The end blocks look like they are some sort of cedar or mahogany, which isn't typical, but the bulbous half moon shape is.

Dave, would you agree that this kind of neck joint is something we see on British provincial work post 1800?

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19 minutes ago, Dave Slight said:

And yet the most successful models of the Baroque era are Stainer, Amati, Strad, Guarneri, Serafin etc.
All of which are intrinsically beautiful models, and none of which have a wasp waist, or bizarre proportions.

Some people seem to be under the delusion that only Italian model violins work for baroque, when that is only partly true for modern set up violins, tonnes of good and very different looking German and French baroque violins that work fine with the baroque set up were made, the whole idea of Italian superiority only arose after they were converted to (higher tension) modern set up. German violins worked just fine for German violinists in the 1700s, none of them had Strads or other Italian violins to play, Bach had a Stainer, that's about the closest thing they had to Italian.

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17 minutes ago, jandepora said:

Any idea or opinion about the violin is welcome.

How about an East Indian Trade piece :ph34r:- I see some asian/india influences.  

Could a worker from over there make it to the U.K. legally back then?

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21 minutes ago, martin swan said:

Dave, would you agree that this kind of neck joint is something we see on British provincial work post 1800?

From what I have seen Martin, this seems to start with one famous London workshop in the late 1700's, the idea then seems to have spread. This is not a particularly well done example compared to some.
I think the violin in question is from around 1800, and the unusual shape makes it seem more archaic than it really is.

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2 minutes ago, Dave Slight said:

From what I have seen Martin, this seems to start with one famous London workshop in the late 1700's, the idea then seems to have spread. This is not a particularly well done example compared to some.
I think the violin in question is from around 1800, and the unusual shape makes it seem more archaic than it really is.

Hey, at least I got the English origin right! B)

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3 minutes ago, Dave Slight said:

From what I have seen Martin, this seems to start with one famous London workshop in the late 1700's, the idea then seems to have spread. This is not a particularly well done example compared to some.
I think the violin in question is from around 1800, and the unusual shape makes it seem more archaic than it really is.

Interesting - I have really only seen this on Scottish amateur work ...

Agree 1800. I am no expert on anything, but I'm quite sure this violin is not "baroque" and that a girt big screw holding the neck in place doesn't make it so.

In my limited experience of baroque players (I mean professionals), they are profoundly uninterested in violins made after 1750 or so, unless of course they are new :ph34r:

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26 minutes ago, Strad O Various Jr. said:

Some people seem to be under the delusion that only Italian model violins work for baroque, when that is only partly true for modern set up violins, tonnes of good and very different looking German and French baroque violins that work fine with the baroque set up were made, the whole idea of Italian superiority only arose after they were converted to (higher tension) modern set up. German violins worked just fine for German violinists in the 1700s, none of them had Strads or other Italian violins to play, Bach had a Stainer, that's about the closest thing they had to Italian.

This is partly true.
If we look back, virtually all countries had some famous and successful makers during the baroque period. Many of these were influenced heavily by the work of earlier generations, particularly Stainer and Amati, some makers being more successful in this respect than others. As time goes on, the models develop into something more personal, but the DNA is still clear to see.

As for Italian superiority, or at least the desire to own one, this seems to have been there from the earliest times. It can be seen in many historic documents, where records show royalty and the aristocracy were ordering directly from Cremona and other parts of Italy, or envoys being dispatched to obtain some. I don't agree that Italians were only considered superior with the advent of modernisation as you suggest. They were known and sought after long before this.

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11 minutes ago, jandepora said:

Hey, at least I got the English origin right! B)

While it has some English features, it also has some which are not.
I don't think you can conclude with certainty it is English.

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Just now, Dave Slight said:

While it has some English features, it also has some which are not.
I don't think you can conclude with certainty it is English.

if not English/Scotttish then..... ITALIAN!:P

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5 hours ago, jandepora said:

I see very difficult that the contour and edges were redone.

If you start at the top of the violin and follow the edge, you can see where it has been thinned almost to the purfling as you get to the sides and the C-Bouts on both sides. The top of the lower right corner appears to not have been thinned as much as the rest, giving a hint of the original edge width in that area. 

The back edges do not appear to have been thinned in the same way as the top edges. Perhaps this is not the original top and the violin is a composite?

 

 

upper_bouts.jpg

c_bouts.jpg

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12 minutes ago, martin swan said:

Interesting - I have really only seen this on Scottish amateur work ...

The trouble is that there are so few original necks left, and unless you happen to be taking the fingerboard off, or other neck work is required, you'd never really notice it.

I remember a few times visiting Eric Voigt's storeroom. He had a stack of neck graft blanks, about a foot square, and several feet high.
Everything Voigt offered for sale had a new neck graft, whether it needed one or not. It seems he was even replacing already grafted necks with his own grafts, which he felt were correct and superior.
This sort of policy was not unique to him by any means, and I guess was the standard for any British workshop of class in the late 19th and early 20th Century. Paul Voigt certainly admired Hill's, and was trying to be the Manchester version of it.

It seems that the traces of original construction survive mainly in examples of instruments which good shops didn't feel were worth their time, or instruments which stayed in their local area, put in the loft for a lifetime or two, owned by skinflints etc.

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23 minutes ago, GeorgeH said:

If you start at the top of the violin and follow the edge, you can see where it has been thinned almost to the purfling as you get to the sides and the C-Bouts on both sides. The top of the lower right corner appears to not have been thinned as much as the rest, giving a hint of the original edge width in that area. 

The back edges do not appear to have been thinned in the same way as the top edges. Perhaps this is not the original top and the violin is a composite?

 

 

upper_bouts.jpg

c_bouts.jpg

I think the violin has the corners overworked or worn and maybe this and the fact that the edges are worn, more in the center c-bouts, make the feeling of a small waist and that the c bouts are rounded. But the arching is very similar in all the contour.

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I think it should be pointed out that baroque musicians are desperate to find original unaltered instruments, couldn't possibly afford anything Italian, and are more than happy to experiment with quirky and different violins if they are original and in their original condition. Also the mad push for extreme loudness and projection that overwhelms the modern violin market, is not so prevalent with baroque musicians which are used to using instruments that are not quite as loud as their modern counterparts, they play in smaller groups with less instruments, and even moderate volume instruments can sound quite loud enough for these groups, not that the less serious baroque groups are often using basically modern set up instruments strung in really heavy gut strings, played with baroque bows. In fact I hear people say 90% of the baroque sound can be accomplished by using  a baroque bow with gut strings on a modern instrument, this I'm afraid is just not true. Baroque instruments are more about quality of tone than quantity of tone, modern groups are the polar opposite.

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I have draw the contour of the top plate in pencil and the ribs contour in blue ink. The measures are taken over the paper with a ruler.

I think the maker wants this circular contour of the central bout and is not something due to wear or worn. In any case the top plate has the corners worn by the use or the case it was kept in.

The c bouts remember the ones of the gambas. 

IMG_20200915_221153_compress89.thumb.jpg.60506baea8f87348171db5ef24ce8512.jpg

I really appreciate more opinions.

@jacobsaunders could you tell me what do you think about this one?

On 9/14/2020 at 9:25 PM, Dave Slight said:

While it has some English features, it also has some which are not.
I don't think you can conclude with certainty it is English.

If not English, what do you think could be other possibilities?

Here pictures of the screwIMG_20200915_134045.thumb.jpg.51dbac3fe3fdd971f0e08f9a263cb9e8.jpg

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I think that the narrowing of the edges along the sides and modifications of the corners  was deliberate because it is too even and symmetrical to be due to case wear and/or playing.

You haven't convinced me that it isn't a composite assembled by a amateur from dutzenware with a "W DUKE" stamp, or a re-worked top plate. Your drawing also seems to suggest a frankentop fitted to the outline of the ribs. :ph34r:

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39 minutes ago, GeorgeH said:

I think that the narrowing of the edges along the sides and modifications of the corners  was deliberate because it is too even and symmetrical to be due to case wear and/or playing.

You haven't convinced me that it isn't a composite assembled by a amateur from dutzenware with a "W DUKE" stamp, or a re-worked top plate. Your drawing also seems to suggest a frankentop fitted to the outline of the ribs. :ph34r:

First of all thank you for your help and opinion. I want to learn as much as I can.

Various things makes me think it could not be a dutzenware violin re worked. The lob is, I think, too short and was not the kind in vogue in 19c. At least not in Mitenwald or Markneukirche. The arching is not the kind we could found in a violin from there.

I think that too the ribs were not continuous if it have from the beginning a through neck or a mortice neck. If it had a nail it was not with this inclination through the block.

 

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32 minutes ago, jandepora said:

Various things makes me think it could not be a dutzenware violin re worked. The lob is, I think, too short and was not the kind in vogue in 19c. At least not in Mitenwald or Markneukirche. The arching is not the kind we could found in a violin from there.

I think it is late 19th/early 20th century. The LOB is right for a 7/8th or "Lady's Violin" as they were marketed back then. The scroll is obviously dutzenware, and the "DUKE" brand stamp under the button is not particularly unusual for a violin of that period.

It is hard to see in pictures, but the arching on the back does not seem out of the usual to me. 

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rubbish, there is no such thing as  a Dutzenarbeit with a screwed on neck, and no such thing as a screwed on neck after about 1840 at the latest, I think some people are just jealous that you found a great violin, and have to try their hardest to tear it apart.

 

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41 minutes ago, Strad O Various Jr. said:

 no such thing as a screwed on neck after about 1840 at the latest 

In the orientation of the violin that is the subject of this thread, probably  correct... but inaccurate without that qualification. Example: the Deganis used a screw from the block into the neck into the 20th century.

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28 minutes ago, Strad O Various Jr. said:

rubbish, there is no such thing as  a Dutzenarbeit with a screwed on neck, and no such thing as a screwed on neck after about 1840 at the latest, I think some people are just jealous that you found a great violin, and have to try their hardest to tear it apart.

Many amateurs screwed and nailed on necks doing "repairs," whether out of expediency, ignorance, or economic necessity. People also used strings to set sound posts, like they did with this one. 

As far as "just jealous that you found a great violin, and have to try their hardest to tear it apart," well, that is an odd comment! 

I am certainly not "jealous;" I am just commenting on what I see, which is what people do here. Anybody is welcome to tell me I am wrong and why, no problem. It is a discussion forum, after all. I am happy to learn from my mistakes.

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