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jandepora

Id violin - English / Scottish

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Hello,

This time I have this violin to id.

The LOB is 346mm. The neck is attached with an screw throught the neck under the fingerboard. The top and bottom ribs are one piece.The bottom block has no hole inside. It has 4 corner blocks with the linings inserted from both sides. It has a W. DUKE brand on the back. The bassbar is straight and short.

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6 minutes ago, Strad O Various Jr. said:

great instrument for a baroque musician, don't even think about converting it.

It is going to stay like it is. The only thing I have doubts is the wood veneer between the neck and the ribs that is the causing, I think, of the button detached and is not original... Maybe I have to try to remove it and see what happen

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Another question I have is the two patches in the back. One could be for the "invisible?" crack near the hole, but the other one is in the place of a label and, there, there is no crack and seems like the patch is not necesary.

34.thumb.jpg.a0261a4631f81609f040ca4c09409f7e.jpg35.thumb.jpg.84bb5ac6032a98d863d9d165dca6f38e.jpg

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46 minutes ago, duane88 said:

Might have just gone too thin in that area.

True, it might be the possibility.
I have remove the neck joint veneer and the neck joint seems better.

36.thumb.jpg.81830c1f7eea3bbcc73d4368dd4129c3.jpg37.thumb.jpg.8c1ac899a674ef5e7889e1d41aad7ea0.jpg38.thumb.jpg.b5da786e74ac15927a98cb7e35966564.jpg39.thumb.jpg.93b71aa79422192a924a8f64660ac33c.jpg40.thumb.jpg.bad9ead6fd5d8bc72365d30b2c2ec951.jpg

 

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I would be interested to know which direction you would take this incredible violin. I have one similar in age and still weighing my options.

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1 minute ago, Garth E. said:

I would be interested to know which direction you would take this incredible violin. I have one similar in age and still weighing my options.

I think better way to discard options could be a dendro research. It could point, at least, the older age the violin was made.

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Interesting fiddle.  Curious that the way the ribs meet at the corners suggests  "external mould," but the rib linings inserted into the corner blocks suggest "internal mould."  Isn't linings inset on both sides of the corner blocks unusual, too?

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9 hours ago, Rue said:

Good grief! Did it grow up wearing a corset??? :blink:

I think it is only a visual effect for the pronounced arch.

Those are the measures of the violin

                          TOP    /   BACK

  • L.o.b.  345mm / 346mm

  • Top 160mm / 162mm

  • Middle 102mm / 104mm

  • Bottom 203mm / 205mm

  • Nut to top edge 130mm

  • Stop length 190mm

  • Bass bar length 217mm.

  • Bass bar height 10mm

  • Ribs height 29-30 mm.
  • Top Arch height 17mm

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It reminds me of the old violins that are sold in the U.S. as "folk fiddles." They are often bodies built by autodidactic makers with imported commercial necks attached.

They can originate from just about anywhere. I think this is one of them.

It even came with a string around the sound post.

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The waist is astoundingly narrow - a few mm make all the difference to the proportions.

This looks very wacky to me.

The screw in the neck may be a later reinforcement of a failed nail joint, or just the work of someone who doesn't know how to do a mortise. We see this persisting in Scottish amateur work well into the middle of the 19th century.

 

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10 hours ago, martin swan said:

The waist is astoundingly narrow - a few mm make all the difference to the proportions.

This looks very wacky to me.

The screw in the neck may be a later reinforcement of a failed nail joint, or just the work of someone who doesn't know how to do a mortise. We see this persisting in Scottish amateur work well into the middle of the 19th century.

 

I was thinking that the violin has a resemblance with Pamphilon: the f holes style, the contour and the short lob.

The construction method has nothing to do with Pamphilon school that is well explain in this incredible Ben Hebbert's work:

https://violinsandviolinists.com/2018/09/04/edward-pamphilon-the-complexities-of-englands-prolific-seventeenth-century-violin-maker/

I have found this one that has the same neck attachment and is named as Pamphilon school: Pamphilon school

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One thing I am impressed with mine is the quality of the varnish. It looks old and new at same time. If it is the work of an amateur his/her develope of varnish is incredible. And the inside work is very clean.

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It looks like the "maker" started with a finished trade violin with a "W DUKE" stamp, disassembled it, modified it (including re-shaping the plates), and then crudely reassembled it. 

It appears like wood was removed from both sides, the corners amateurishly redone, and the ffs re-shaped.

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49 minutes ago, GeorgeH said:

It looks like the "maker" started with a finished trade violin with a "W DUKE" stamp, disassembled it, modified it (including re-shaping the plates), and then crudely reassembled it. 

It appears like wood was removed from both sides, the corners amateurishly redone, and the ffs re-shaped.

I think this is not as plausible as that the violin was make by a non professional maker, or amateur, or that the violin is older.

I see very difficult that the contour and edges were redone.

The ffs has an idiosyncratic shape and I think it would be difficult to make it like this from another ffs shape. It has the bottom part too far of the center of the FF, like could see in Pamphilon violins.

The kind of neck attachment could only be possible if the original one has no hole, and this has no sense. Or the original has a through neck or a mortise. The hole in the block and in the neck follow the inclination of the screw.

The arching is very well done following the edges and no sign of a purfling or edge reshape.

It is only my opinion and I am here to learn... I really appreciate your help and knowledge. Thank you Georg.

 

 

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It should be remembered that a lot of old makers, were people working in allied trades.
Therefore, one often finds violins which can leave you scratching your head as to why the woodwork, or even varnish is competently done, yet the model and proportions only make sense if you'd had a week on the lash at a gin palace.

Does the grain of the endblocks run parallel to the ribs?

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1 hour ago, Dave Slight said:

It should be remembered that a lot of old makers, were people working in allied trades.
Therefore, one often finds violins which can leave you scratching your head as to why the woodwork, or even varnish is competently done, yet the model and proportions only make sense if you'd had a week on the lash at a gin palace.

Does the grain of the endblocks run parallel to the ribs?

I agree with Dave's observation.

It's very common to find violins which have great varnish or good joinery, but where the f-holes or the model are incomprehensibly bad ... many excellent woodworkers or pattern-makers produced violins which show significant skill in some areas and utter incompetence in others. F-holes are yery difficult!

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Just now, Strad O Various Jr. said:

Not every violin has to look like a Stradivarius, I think any serious baroque player would be proud to own an instrument like this, original baroque violins in this good of a condition are exceedingly rare.

The sound is likely to be execrable with such a narrow waist, and I'm not sure this is a "baroque" violin. It seems more like a rustic c1800 to me ...

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1 hour ago, Dave Slight said:

It should be remembered that a lot of old makers, were people working in allied trades.
Therefore, one often finds violins which can leave you scratching your head as to why the woodwork, or even varnish is competently done, yet the model and proportions only make sense if you'd had a week on the lash at a gin palace.

Does the grain of the endblocks run parallel to the ribs?

The top and end block are of a hard wood I don't recognice. Maybe this pictures may help... and yes, it has no hole inside for the end pin.42.thumb.jpg.a9e5ce8190dec3b85821f86f0039061c.jpg43.thumb.jpg.18ee08d94810bfb4475f01d32710ef94.jpg

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