Goffriller Posted September 10, 2020 Report Share Posted September 10, 2020 Hi everyone, I play on an 18th century Mirecourt violin ca.1780 that has a one-piece lower rib. I know that this construction method was quite common in Mittenwald around the same time, but do know how prevalent this was in Mirecourt (and France in general) in the 1700s. Looking forward to your thoughts - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wood Butcher Posted September 10, 2020 Report Share Posted September 10, 2020 It happened pretty much anywhere they had a long enough rib, during this period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deans Posted September 10, 2020 Report Share Posted September 10, 2020 Here's one, maybe a bit later than yours. One that probably isnt worth fixing, but maybe someday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilipKT Posted September 11, 2020 Report Share Posted September 11, 2020 Isn’t that a Mittenwald notch? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goffriller Posted September 11, 2020 Author Report Share Posted September 11, 2020 4 minutes ago, PhilipKT said: Isn’t that a Mittenwald notch? It seems to be a small impact dent that happens to be well placed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duane88 Posted September 11, 2020 Report Share Posted September 11, 2020 16 minutes ago, PhilipKT said: Isn’t that a Mittenwald notch? It's only a Mittenwald notch if it is on a Mittenwald instrument... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilipKT Posted September 11, 2020 Report Share Posted September 11, 2020 2 hours ago, duane88 said: It's only a Mittenwald notch if it is on a Mittenwald instrument... Ok so that’s a typical mark on a one piece rib and not necessarily an indication of a German instrument? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacobsaunders Posted September 11, 2020 Report Share Posted September 11, 2020 7 hours ago, duane88 said: It's only a Mittenwald notch if it is on a Mittenwald instrument... Plenty of Viennese instruments with Mittenwald notch, not to mention Linz, Presburg and many more, got to keep Philip confused Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratcliffiddles Posted September 11, 2020 Report Share Posted September 11, 2020 10 hours ago, Goffriller said: Hi everyone, I play on an 18th century Mirecourt violin ca.1780 that has a one-piece lower rib. I know that this construction method was quite common in Mittenwald around the same time, but do know how prevalent this was in Mirecourt (and France in general) in the 1700s. Looking forward to your thoughts - Maybe a picture of the front would be interesting to see? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeH Posted September 11, 2020 Report Share Posted September 11, 2020 3 hours ago, jacobsaunders said: Plenty of Viennese instruments with Mittenwald notch, not to mention Linz, Presburg and many more, got to keep Philip confused Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't the "Mittenwald notch" cut on the rib, whereas Markneukirchen makers cut the notch on the plate, if they used one at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacobsaunders Posted September 11, 2020 Report Share Posted September 11, 2020 1 hour ago, GeorgeH said: Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't the "Mittenwald notch" cut on the rib, whereas Markneukirchen makers cut the notch on the plate, if they used one at all. Yes, thank-you. The “Mittenwald notch” has always been a misnome, since it is common to all of the 18th C. makers south of the Danube. It isn’t some weird sort of decoration, as Philip seems to think, but a helpful marking of the centre line for the maker. The makers North of the Danube (to use a slightly arbitrary dividing line) who used a “Built on back” building method, also needed to mark a centre line, but with the BOB method, the centre line was cut into the back not into the ribs. This mark is often indistinct, or full of dirt, but can as often as not be found. Thus the significance for identifying old instruments; to find a notch or alternatively a centre line cut into the back, one can exclude the violin having been made north or south of the Danube, whichever applies, to use my fairly rough generalisation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jwillis Posted September 11, 2020 Report Share Posted September 11, 2020 Ok I’m trying to keep this straight ha. So let me ask this question....typically if a person has a violin with a one piece bottom rib, what is the building method used? Bob? Outside mold? Both? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeH Posted September 11, 2020 Report Share Posted September 11, 2020 Thank you, @jacobsaunders Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeorgeH Posted September 11, 2020 Report Share Posted September 11, 2020 5 minutes ago, Jwillis said: Ok I’m trying to keep this straight ha. So let me ask this question....typically if a person has a violin with a one piece bottom rib, what is the building method used? Bob? Outside mold? Both? A one-piece rib generally excludes BoB as the original method of building the ribs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jwillis Posted September 11, 2020 Report Share Posted September 11, 2020 2 minutes ago, GeorgeH said: A one-piece rib generally excludes BoB as the original method of building the ribs. Thanks that makes sense Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goffriller Posted September 11, 2020 Author Report Share Posted September 11, 2020 5 hours ago, Ratcliffiddles said: Maybe a picture of the front would be interesting to see? Thanks for all the information everyone. Here is a picture of the front Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratcliffiddles Posted September 11, 2020 Report Share Posted September 11, 2020 Thanks, that indeed looks French, although I am not sure it's quite 18th century Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilipKT Posted September 11, 2020 Report Share Posted September 11, 2020 1 hour ago, jacobsaunders said: Yes, thank-you. The “Mittenwald notch” has always been a misnome, since it is common to all of the 18th C. makers south of the Danube. It isn’t some weird sort of decoration, as Philip seems to think, but a helpful marking of the centre line for the maker. The makers North of the Danube (to use a slightly arbitrary dividing line) who used a “Built on back” building method, also needed to mark a centre line, but with the BOB method, the centre line was cut into the back not into the ribs. This mark is often indistinct, or full of dirt, but can as often as not be found. Thus the significance for identifying old instruments; to find a notch or alternatively a centre line cut into the back, one can exclude the violin having been made north or south of the Danube, whichever applies, to use my fairly rough generalisation. Where, pray tell, did I ever refer to this notch as “decoration’”? I am actually rather fond of you, Jacob , and I enjoy your thoughts and do my best to glean everything of value from them. I don’t know what childhood trauma led to your apparent delight in sarcasm and condescension, but attempts to avoid them wouldn’t go amiss. FWIW, the notch in the picture you shared looks very much like the notch in the OP violin, so I asked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goffriller Posted September 11, 2020 Author Report Share Posted September 11, 2020 Here is a more detailed picture of the possible notch: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacobsaunders Posted September 11, 2020 Report Share Posted September 11, 2020 25 minutes ago, Goffriller said: Here is a more detailed picture of the possible notch: I'm not quite sure what you are trying to say, but that is quite clearly NOT a so called "Mittenwald notch" bur a centre line marking cut into the back, so for my normal area of operation, "North of the Danube" although it looks like it could just as well be budget English Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratcliffiddles Posted September 11, 2020 Report Share Posted September 11, 2020 1 hour ago, Ratcliffiddles said: Thanks, that indeed looks French, although I am not sure it's quite 18th century Definitely closer to 1800 than 1780 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Burgess Posted September 11, 2020 Report Share Posted September 11, 2020 I would not place high importance on one singular feature or another, when it comes to identification. Over my lifetime of fiddle-making, I have experimented with many sorts of things. Someone may be inclined to call various of my fiddles as being German, French, or Italian. It remains a high source of amusement. to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sospiri Posted September 11, 2020 Report Share Posted September 11, 2020 2 hours ago, Ratcliffiddles said: Definitely closer to 1800 than 1780 Really Peter? How close do you think it might be? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin swan Posted September 11, 2020 Report Share Posted September 11, 2020 1820s ...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sospiri Posted September 11, 2020 Report Share Posted September 11, 2020 35 minutes ago, martin swan said: 1820s ...? Ok I was Pavlov's Dogivating, now I'm really hungry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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