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Sugarcane

Help violin antonius amatus 5-ply purfling

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Hello all, 
First I am French and excuse me for my English.
So I just bought a violin from an antique dealer (which he would have had in Geneva) and I would like to know if you could tell me more about it. 
Several points intrigue me, and to which I have found no answer despite my research. I contacted a dendrochronology company but unfortunately the exam turned out to be too expensive (800 euros). 
I therefore rely on your expertise and your comments. I have been looking for information for a month on this violin, label "Antonius Amatus fecit cremonen. Anno 1673 l - I only saw one with a similar label on Tarisio, a violin by Claude Pierray. From what I read no Antonio Amati existed at this date. There is an inscription placed below the label, apocryphal therefore, that I am still trying to decipher (I will try to place uv inside the violin) 
I was told it could be a 1900 German violin. 
I have already listed several points about it: Several breaks (6 or 7 including bottom) all repaired with parchment, I passed an endoscope.
A spindle on the head. In UV light, I saw the varnish touch-ups on the finger joint, at the base of the handle overhanging the back and covering the inscription AA as well as at the junction of the bottom.
The 5-ply purfling - seems to be a practice of the luthiers of Markneukirchen.Don t know if it mades with whalebone.
 I also noticed that the f-holes were strangely parallel to the ribs of the wood. Maybe maker from low countries?
And there is also the AA marking on the heel. 
The dimensions are: Body length 355 m Top width 164 mm Middle 108 mm Low 206 mm

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Edited by Sugarcane

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I have an old trade fiddle with 5-ply purfling, also labelled Amati, not that that means anything. I think the trade shops used it sometimes, but not all that often.

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Should you wish to post pictures in the hope of someone identifying your fiddle, it would be helpful if you would use the instruction thread

since all the close ups aren’t much help, after all none of us look at violins with a magnifying glass.

Re. the 5ply purfling, this was used in Markneukirchen, most famously by Seidel, and I wrote a thread on his work here

although I wouldn’t immediately recognise your fiddle as a Seidel. More helpful would be what the corner blocks look like, or if the fluting of the scroll goes all the way into the throat, or if it stops at 6 o’clock etc.

Congratulation on yout English!

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13 hours ago, Sugarcane said:


. I contacted a dendrochronology company but unfortunately the exam turned out to be too expensive (800 euros). 
 

 

Charging less than a third of that, I am obviously far too cheap.

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The inscription reads something like "Repariert von...A. richardsen" (repaired by ...). It's German and therefore it was definitely outside of Italy 100 years ago.

I have actually no idea what it could be otherwise, but doesn't look like "the usual" Markneukirchen, and probably a good deal older than 100 years. The 5-ply purfling was traded to nearly everywhere.

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22 hours ago, deans said:

I have an old trade fiddle with 5-ply purfling, also labelled Amati, not that that means anything. I think the trade shops used it sometimes, but not all that often.

 

13 hours ago, Blank face said:

The inscription reads something like "Repariert von...A. richardsen" (repaired by ...). It's German and therefore it was definitely outside of Italy 100 years ago.

I have actually no idea what it could be otherwise, but doesn't look like "the usual" Markneukirchen, and probably a good deal older than 100 years. The 5-ply purfling was traded to nearly everywhere.

That what i think, reparirt or reapariert or i saw also "reprt" on the net. I search a date with UV light but unfortunetly i don t find it yet .. So it doesn t come from Markneikirchen (also i read today that Markneukirchen had a 6.00 scroll) . Is it possible it comes from low countries? ... It s great if it s older than 100 years ..

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22 hours ago, deans said:

I have an old trade fiddle with 5-ply purfling, also labelled Amati, not that that means anything. I think the trade shops used it sometimes, but not all that often.

Just amati? Is it the same 5-ply purfling? And is it a Markneukirchen violin?

 

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21 hours ago, Ratcliffiddles said:

Charging less than a third of that, I am obviously far too cheap.

22 hours ago, Strad O Various Jr. said:

Take the strings off, the neck has pulled loose and has to be reglued, fortunately it did not break the button (the part that sticks out on the top of the back)


do not worry the strings are not tight, I will soon take the violin to do the repair.

 

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23 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

Should you wish to post pictures in the hope of someone identifying your fiddle, it would be helpful if you would use the instruction thread

since all the close ups aren’t much help, after all none of us look at violins with a magnifying glass.

Re. the 5ply purfling, this was used in Markneukirchen, most famously by Seidel, and I wrote a thread on his work here

although I wouldn’t immediately recognise your fiddle as a Seidel. More helpful would be what the corner blocks look like, or if the fluting of the scroll goes all the way into the throat, or if it stops at 6 o’clock etc.

Congratulation on yout English!

I read you thread, it very, very interesting. Yes the fluting of the scroll goes all the way into the throat. I took interior picture of the corner block, i hope that what you want to see? But sorry, it s not the best quality .. 

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Edited by Sugarcane
Picture place error

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On 9/1/2020 at 10:32 PM, jacobsaunders said:

Should you wish to post pictures in the hope of someone identifying your fiddle, it would be helpful if you would use the instruction thread

since all the close ups aren’t much help, after all none of us look at violins with a magnifying glass.

Re. the 5ply purfling, this was used in Markneukirchen, most famously by Seidel, and I wrote a thread on his work here

although I wouldn’t immediately recognise your fiddle as a Seidel. More helpful would be what the corner blocks look like, or if the fluting of the scroll goes all the way into the throat, or if it stops at 6 o’clock etc.

Congratulation on yout English!

 

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3 hours ago, Sugarcane said:

Just amati? Is it the same 5-ply purfling? And is it a Markneukirchen violin?

I forget exactly what the label is. I can look tomorrow. Definitely Saxon/Czech. Not quite like yours. And I suspect yours has been stripped.

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On 9/4/2020 at 7:09 PM, jacobsaunders said:

Yes, a revarnished Markneukirchen Dutzendarbeit

Thank you all for yours answers.

If i well understand, and after reading all posts i'll found about markneukirchen Dutzendarbeit in this forum this violin was made between 1900 and ww1. It Seems to have a glued bass bar. So the table could be made with machining? That s right?

But two other questions, what about the scroll which seems goes all the way for me ? I read it was not usual in Markneukirchen.

And what about the inside corner block which doesn't look to just been put on the lining like in other Markneukirchen violin i saw on this forum?

 

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Looks to me to be older violin and that it was originally made without purfling (I have similar edgework on 18th-early 19th c. violins without purfling). But I am probably wrong when jacobsaunders say other thing, or possibly he didn't bother to look carefully:).

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about the corners, the blocks and the way the c ribs are assembled.. the photo isn't great but.. the close up on the broken corner seems revealing
 

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11 hours ago, J-G said:

For (currently) 216 more posts concerning this violin, check out the OP's other thread on the French forum:

http://www.forum.le-violon.org/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=13258&sid=11baf7b35ac93b2c66b5a8899b5e18fa

The great thing about the internet is that you can keep trying different forums, until you find people to agree with you

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35 minutes ago, Wood Butcher said:

The great thing about the internet is that you can keep trying different forums, until you find people to agree with you

So i need to find a third forum, it s not on the good way here too;) 

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13 hours ago, J-G said:

For (currently) 216 more posts concerning this violin, check out the OP's other thread on the French forum:

http://www.forum.le-violon.org/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=13258&sid=11baf7b35ac93b2c66b5a8899b5e18fa

That s right ... A little more post now;)

I came here on advice and after learning the violin could came from Markneukirchen. They are german violin expert here and i want to learn more on it :)

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15 hours ago, mendicus said:

Looks to me to be older violin and that it was originally made without purfling (I have similar edgework on 18th-early 19th c. violins without purfling). But I am probably wrong when jacobsaunders say other thing, or possibly he didn't bother to look carefully:).

Have you got pictures of your violin?

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3 hours ago, Sugarcane said:

That s right ... A little more post now;)

I came here on advice and after learning the violin could came from Markneukirchen. They are german violin expert here and i want to learn more on it :)

I'm afraid that there isn't anything more to learn. What was puzzling me a bit after the first photos you posted were the somehow unusual look of scroll and ff, but after seeing some more details, like the corner blocks being glued over the linings, it's obviuous that this started once as an ordinary Markneukirchen/Schönbach cottage industry Dutzendarbeit which was undergoing several states of stripping, revarnishing, alterations of scroll (the deep fluting), grafting a new neck, adding an upper block and position pins, letters etc. That's simply all one will ever be able to tell. The purfling was surely the oldest original part, you can take the deeply sunken in original dark varnish as a prove for this.

Of course it's possible to produce a lot of fantasies due to the mostly blurred features, but IMO that's just a waste of time.

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No matter, MN Dutzendarbeit is good for me. I like this violin. Look and sound. It s interesting to know that s the scroll could be altered and position pin added.Thank you.

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