Your Opinions Please! New T2 Auction

[Bill Merkel]

25 minutes ago, martin swan said:

How many authentic Klotz family violins have you tried?

mucho violins is not my specialty, like it is yours.  i'm asking, not answering.

[Guido]

3 hours ago, Bill Merkel said:

very pretty but do they have a voice that modern classical players willing to spend the money would spend the money on?  i associate them with a sweet weak sound, likely as not wrongly....  iow, who are the customers?  didn't mean to suggest the op fiddle was genuine, just have always wondered this about klotzes, and since the name came up

I guess it goes back to the supposed sound characteristics of Amati vs Strad and all the conjecture, prejudices and perceptions that come with it. If you rock up at uni today with an 18th century Germanic violin people will look at you as if you didn't get the memo and tell you to just go and get a Collin-Mezin. That might be totally wrong but it is arguably a rather common view.

So, who are the customers for violins in the Amati/ Stainer/ Klotz/... preconception drawer? Blend-in orchestra/ chamber music?  Given-up solo ambitions, but not quite ready for viola? Collectors and enthusiasts? Contrarians wanting to show everybody that the common Amati/Strad thing is all wrong?

[Guido]

10 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

What on earth makes you think that? I would exclude Joseph sen. simply because of the corners

I don't have a strong view (because I don't know much about anything, obviously), but was just throwing up an idea, varnish and corners being the main points for me. The slightly wavy spruce, the scroll, and slab cut ribs, however, pointing away from Saxony. 

[Michael Appleman]

10 hours ago, Bill Merkel said:

mucho violins is not my specialty, like it is yours.  i'm asking, not answering.

A real Klotz is usually a very fine violin. They can have all of the "qualities" players rave about in similarly made and arched italian violins and can be excellent instruments for professional musicians. However, 90% of what gets called a Klotz all over the world is more generic lower-end Mittenwald work, and these do tend to be "sweet sounding" with little depth or carrying power, so I understand where your question is coming from. I'd suggest that in general, the reputation of German violins has suffered because of the huge volume of lower priced stuff they exported all over the world.

[martin swan]

1 hour ago, Michael Appleman said:

A real Klotz is usually a very fine violin. They can have all of the "qualities" players rave about in similarly made and arched italian violins and can be excellent instruments for professional musicians. However, 90% of what gets called a Klotz all over the world is more generic lower-end Mittenwald work, and these do tend to be "sweet sounding" with little depth or carrying power, so I understand where your question is coming from. I'd suggest that in general, the reputation of German violins has suffered because of the huge volume of lower priced stuff they exported all over the world.

I agree 100% with all of this.
 

[jacobsaunders]

6 hours ago, Michael Appleman said:

 However, 90% of what gets called a Klotz all over the world is more generic lower-end Mittenwald work, 

Or rather, 90% is “Dutzendarbeit” with a facsimile label, and some is “generic” Mittenwald

[jacobsaunders]

6 hours ago, Michael Appleman said:

A real Klotz is usually a very fine violin. They can have all of the "qualities" players rave about in similarly made and arched italian violins and can be excellent instruments for professional musicians. However, 90% of what gets called a Klotz all over the world is more generic lower-end Mittenwald work, and these do tend to be "sweet sounding" with little depth or carrying power, so I understand where your question is coming from. I'd suggest that in general, the reputation of German violins has suffered because of the huge volume of lower priced stuff they exported all over the world.

I think the basis of all of this, is the knuckleheaded insistence of looking at 17^th and 18^th C making, using a map from the 19^th or 20^th C. The facts are that 17^th & 18^th C Füssen families sent their 13 year old sons to learn making to some distant relative in Padua, Venice or Vienna (or elsewhere), such that one cannot disentangle South Germany and Northern Italy of the time. It was, should you use a broad brush, the same learning environment for all. Up until the late 17^th C. the North Italian region had something of a monopoly on good violins, from 1700ish, people made super violins almost everywhere, and your “Clasical Italian School” was in terminal decline

[Blank face]

14 hours ago, Guido said:

I don't have a strong view (because I don't know much about anything, obviously), but was just throwing up an idea, varnish and corners being the main points for me. The slightly wavy spruce, the scroll, and slab cut ribs, however, pointing away from Saxony. 

I looked twice, three and four times, but at least it's very difficult to judge by the photos. I disagree that Saxony didn't use "wavy" spruce, but I'm not so sure that the ribs are slab cut (straight paralell grain lines are visible), and that the scratches seem to be almost all artificial. This sort of painted on flames at the bottom  were used at many places, Füssen and Markneukirchen included.

I'm suspecting that the final question might be what's original, pegbox or volute, also the (most probably) bob ribs could be replacements. One certainly would need to see it in person.

(But one thing is for sure, not a Kloz)

1 hour ago, jacobsaunders said:

I think the basis of all of this, is the knuckleheaded insistence of looking at 17^th and 18^th C making, using a map from the 19^th or 20^th C

The reason might be that the alleged superiority of everything what's somehow "Italian" was established by 19th/early 20th century dealers.

[martin swan]

On 8/11/2020 at 10:23 PM, Bill Merkel said:

mucho violins is not my specialty, like it is yours.  i'm asking, not answering.

OK - well "sweet and weak" doesn't really correspond to my experience of Kloz/Klotz violins. There are many Mittenwald violins that are loosely attributed to this family which I might describe that way, but mostly my experience of authentic examples has been the reverse. Very clean, strong in sound, sometimes a bit strident - they are very popular with classical players, particularly in Germany and Austria, perhaps less so with conservatoire sluggers who hope to spend their lives sawing through the Bruch and the Tchaik .. but such people can never be saved from themselves. Best just try to sell them a Fagnola!

Edit - Oops thought I had posted this yesterday ...

[Dwight Brown]

Did anyone get a chance to look at this one?

 

I'm still on the fence.

 

https://t2-auctions.com/auctions/lot/?csid=2199322624&cpid=3670605824

 

DLB

[jacobsaunders]

I wonder why they don't ramble on about the pegs being of rosewood.

Looks quite nice, although I have no idea what a Bellafontana should look like

[Blank face]

3 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

I wonder why they don't ramble on about the pegs being of rosewood.

Actually rosewood parts of musical instruments werre legalized again, up to a certain percentage of the whole, 20% or something like this. I wonder how this portion is measured?

[Wood Butcher]

22 minutes ago, Blank face said:

Actually rosewood parts of musical instruments werre legalized again, up to a certain percentage of the whole, 20% or something like this. I wonder how this portion is measured?

By weight maybe?

[Blank face]

9 minutes ago, Wood Butcher said:

By weight maybe?

How can they take it from a fingerboard, a glued on guitar bridge or it’s back and sides?

[Just Sayin’]

On 8/11/2020 at 11:29 PM, Michael Appleman said:

A real Klotz is usually a very fine violin. They can have all of the "qualities" players rave about in similarly made and arched italian violins and can be excellent instruments for professional musicians. However, 90% of what gets called a Klotz all over the world is more generic lower-end Mittenwald work, and these do tend to be "sweet sounding" with little depth or carrying power, so I understand where your question is coming from. I'd suggest that in general, the reputation of German violins has suffered because of the huge volume of lower priced stuff they exported all over the world.

Very helpful and cogent post, thanks Michael

[Shelbow]

I quite like the look of this violin despite its condition. https://t2-auctions.com/auctions/lot/?csid=2199322624&cpid=3602513920&filter_key=

[deans]

On 8/12/2020 at 1:23 AM, martin swan said:

On 8/11/2020 at 11:29 PM, Michael Appleman said:

A real Klotz is usually a very fine violin. They can have all of the "qualities" players rave about in similarly made and arched italian violins and can be excellent instruments for professional musicians. However, 90% of what gets called a Klotz all over the world is more generic lower-end Mittenwald work, and these do tend to be "sweet sounding" with little depth or carrying power, so I understand where your question is coming from. I'd suggest that in general, the reputation of German violins has suffered because of the huge volume of lower priced stuff they exported all over the world.

I agree 100% with all of this

I agree too, but it isnt the whole story.  There seems to be everything in between in terms of workmanship, model, arching and sound.  The full spectrum.  You have to really know what you want, and then live with that fact that you might overpay a bit for a "Sebastian" that might just be a particularly nice generic instrument.

 

[Dwight Brown]

On 8/13/2020 at 11:06 AM, jacobsaunders said:

I wonder why they don't ramble on about the pegs being of rosewood.

Looks quite nice, although I have no idea what a Bellafontana should look like

Seems like whoever did it they went to a lot of trouble two labels and a stamp.  I looked up the guy on Cozio and I'm not at all sure I learned anything really.  I'm not sure anything much is known.  It is a nice size and might be OK I wish I had a transporter and could just zap myself to NYC.  Oh well.

DLB

[mmmm]

Way over estimate...thoughts on this?  https://t2-auctions.com/auctions/lot/?csid=2199322624&cpid=3682844672&filter_key=

[Wood Butcher]

33 minutes ago, mmmm said:

Way over estimate...thoughts on this?  https://t2-auctions.com/auctions/lot/?csid=2199322624&cpid=3682844672&filter_key=

Probably a low estimate to get the ball rolling, given the horrific back repair.

[Shelbow]

Hmm that is a curious repair

[Michael Appleman]

More than just a crack repair...a lot of worm damage I would guess...

[deans]

A modern restorer could probably make that disappear to a casual observer.

[Wood Butcher]

2 hours ago, deans said:

A modern restorer could probably make that disappear to a casual observer.

I’m sure whoever attempted that was a modern restorer in their day.

While I’m sure it could be improved upon, the cost would be significant too.

[jacobsaunders]

 

2 hours ago, deans said:

A modern restorer could probably make that disappear to a casual observer.

It’s one thing for some auction alpha individual to think to himself, ”old tiddly-push down the road could disappear that for me”, but quite another to actually achieve it.