Possibly a Mittenwald factory trade violin?

[Garth E.]

Pretty sure this violin is German factory trade. Maybe Mittenwald. I'm hoping possibly mid 19th but more likely late 19th.  No label. It has a one piece back and belly and a one piece lower rib. Also an ebony capped button. Would appreciate your thoughts. Thanks again.

[deans]

I'd say you're probably right. The corner blocks will strengthen your guess more than anything. One ugly saddle though. 

[uncle duke]

Appears el French to me.

[Garth E.]

2 hours ago, deans said:

The corner blocks will strengthen your guess more than anything.

I just took these. Maybe will help.

[Ratcliffiddles]

It looks fairly typical of the Mittenwald production

[jacobsaunders]

13 hours ago, Garth E. said:

German factory trade. Maybe Mittenwald.

Yes Mittenwald, except they didn’t have what one could describe as a “Factory” there in the 19^th C. You could use the search function to read up on “Verleger” or "Verlagswesen”

[GeorgeH]

@Garth E., it is actually quite a good learning instrument for going through @jacobsaunders excellent "brief and necessarily incomplete blueprint" as it has many of the distinguishing features of Mittenwald violins that he discusses.

[Garth E.]

1 hour ago, GeorgeH said:

@Garth E., it is actually quite a good learning instrument for going through @jacobsaunders excellent "brief and necessarily incomplete blueprint" as it has many of the distinguishing features of Mittenwald violins that he discusses.

Very nice, thanks.

[Garth E.]

3 hours ago, jacobsaunders said:

Yes Mittenwald, except they didn’t have what one could describe as a “Factory” there in the 19^th C. You could use the search function to read up on “Verleger” or "Verlagswesen”

Thank-you Jacob. I will definitely do the reading.

[Garth E.]

20 hours ago, uncle duke said:

Appears el French to me.

French, how so?

[uncle duke]

21 hours ago, Garth E. said:

 

 

 

Mostly the ff holes and then the c bout and then the back of the scroll - just doesn't look german to me. 

[Strad O Various Jr.]

That's what we have experts for!!

[uncle duke]

1 hour ago, Strad O Various Jr. said:

That's what we have experts for!!

I get one out of seven or eight right - mostly guessing.

[Blank face]

4 hours ago, uncle duke said:

Mostly the ff holes and then the c bout and then the back of the scroll - just doesn't look german to me. 

Yup. Because Mittenwald (where the instrument without any reasonable doubt originates from) is located in Bavaria and many people in and outside this Free State don't count it to Germany, even some of their leading politicians.

[uncle duke]

3 hours ago, Blank face said:

Yup. Because Mittenwald (where the instrument without any reasonable doubt originates from) is located in Bavaria and many people in and outside this Free State don't count it to Germany, even some of their leading politicians.

Can I interpret this as, for example, a frenchman relocates to Mannheim, learns to make a fiddle and sometimes afterwards germany wouldn't claim it as one of their own?  How unpatriotic.    

[Garth E.]

On 8/4/2020 at 3:25 AM, jacobsaunders said:

Yes Mittenwald, except they didn’t have what one could describe as a “Factory” there in the 19^th C. You could use the search function to read up on “Verleger” or "Verlagswesen”

Have read many threads here relating to early Mittenwald violin making and your links. Would it be unreasonable to date this one before 1850?

[deans]

25 minutes ago, Garth E. said:

Would it be unreasonable to date this one before 1850?

I suppose it wouldnt be out of line to date it before 1850. But I dont think anyone would care if it was made in 1851. 

[Garth E.]

41 minutes ago, deans said:

I suppose it wouldnt be out of line to date it before 1850. But I dont think anyone would care if it was made in 1851. 

I would hope not. Ha.

[jacobsaunders]

3 hours ago, Garth E. said:

Would it be unreasonable to date this one before 1850?

I would probably argue with you, and expect it to be 1880/90ish. Sometimes the year the scroll was made was written in ink on the endgrain bit of the pegbox beneath the nut (often covered in dirt)

[Michael H]

I recognize the key features of this being Mittenwald as being: 1) one-piece rib, 2) bottom notch, 3) inset saddle 4) let-in linings. Otherwise, how else can I identify this as a Mittenwald based upon the scroll, corners, rib joints and varnish? This looks like it was built with an inside mold (which I am only imagining from seeing the cornerblock and non-flush top plate to rib alignment), but if I had not seen the let in linings or endpin area, I might assume this to be a non-Mittenwald German instrument. I’m trying to identify using other methods. Thank you in advance.

edit: Oh, and the very deep-fluted throat being Mittenwald too. 

[Garth E.]

43 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

on the endgrain bit of the pegbox beneath the nut (often covered in dirt)

Thanks Jacob, I will check. 

[Blank face]

18 hours ago, uncle duke said:

Can I interpret this as, for example, a frenchman relocates to Mannheim, learns to make a fiddle and sometimes afterwards germany wouldn't claim it as one of their own?  How unpatriotic.    

I don't understand the reference to Mannheim (there wasn't any specific Mannheim school of violin making), nor to patriotism. Not going into the banned realm of politics, but in the matter of violin identification such a point of view is leading unescapabably to absurd conclusions. The OP violin is showing all Mittenwald features but no French, so there isn't much more to say. BTW, before 1871 there wasn't a Germany as a state in the way one might know it today, but Bavaria was an independent kingdom on its own, and some didn't forget this. Actually they call themselve a "Freistaat" (free state) within the Federal Republic, same like Saxony, though this has no consequences in reality. Just patriotism.

[Blank face]

31 minutes ago, Michael H said:

I recognize the key features of this being Mittenwald as being: 1) one-piece rib, 2) bottom notch, 3) inset saddle 4) let-in linings. Otherwise, how else can I identify this as a Mittenwald based upon the scroll, corners, rib joints and varnish? This looks like it was built with an inside mold (which I am only imagining from seeing the cornerblock and non-flush top plate to rib alignment), but if I had not seen the let in linings or endpin area, I might assume this to be a non-Mittenwald German instrument. I’m trying to identify using other methods. Thank you in advance.

One could add that other features beside the construction like: Varnish, wood choice, scroll shape, model, soundholes etc. can give enough evidence for a Mittenwald origin (or close related like "a footwalk away from there") and a rough time period when you just have seen enough of similar instruments to recognize them.

OTOH, what sort of German instrument do you have in mind as an alternative? A Saxon/Bohemian origin can be excluded by the way of construction.

[Michael H]

4 minutes ago, Blank face said:

One could add that other features beside the construction like: Varnish, wood choice, scroll shape, model, soundholes etc. can give enough evidence for a Mittenwald origin (or close related like "a footwalk away from there") and a rough time period when you just have seen enough of similar instruments to recognize them.

OTOH, what sort of German instrument do you have in mind as an alternative? A Saxon/Bohemian origin can be excluded by the way of construction.

I suppose the areas that I mentioned are the key areas for my own “skills” of identification, but I have only had a few Mittenwalds, so my ability to determine based upon scroll profile, wood choice and f-holes are very limited. I did have what I thought was a Mittenwald violin years ago, but turned out to be an obvious Markneukirchen once the top was off. Still had a one piece rib, but lacked an inset saddle and was BOB with fake cornerblocks added later. It also had deep fluted scroll, a notch, and wider f-holes, also diving boards for corners not flush with the corners, a nice rounded and deeply cut profile with a semi protruding chin, most likely altered in some areas to look more Mittenwald. Had I known more about wood choice and ability to identify the rib joints, I may have avoided. I guess I am wondering mainly how the corners and rib joints look, in my opinion, like diving boards that can be mistaken for a BOB construction, despite the overhang...?

[Blank face]

Of course one needs much more than only one (or a few) features. And it's very often much easier to tell where a violin was not made than to say where it was.