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When to Re-Graduate?


shunkpenn

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When making a decision on possibly re-graduating a back plate, should it be based on thickness or on the weight and density of the wood used for the back plate? If the plate is a lower density wood would it need to be thicker for structural integrity?  

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16 minutes ago, Michael Darnton said:

The only time I regrad a back is when the thickest spot is in the wrong place. Otherwise I genetally leave them as they are. I could also see logic for thinning the edges of the c-bouts if they are grossly heavy.

Do you place the maximum thickness at the narrowest part in the C's ?   That would seem consistent with an idea that the back should go from very stiff to quite flexible at the edges.  (The narrowest part is intrinsically stiffer and therefore,  perhaps putting the maximum stiffness here would be consistent with wanting the largest constrast in stiffness from "center" outward.)

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The only thing that I re-graduate is the old dutzenarbeit instruments, and then, it's usually just the tops. The backs are sometimes OK just the way they are.

When you take the wood off, you can't put it back, and there is no guarantee that if you re-graduate, the sound will improve.

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10 minutes ago, FiddleDoug said:

The only thing that I re-graduate is the old dutzenarbeit instruments, and then, it's usually just the tops. The backs are sometimes OK just the way they are.

When you take the wood off, you can't put it back, and there is no guarantee that if you re-graduate, the sound will improve.

then why do you do it?

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7 hours ago, Strad O Various Jr. said:

then why do you do it?

If you had ever opened one up you probably wouldn't ask that question. The tops on a lot of those old dutzenarbiet instruments were never really graduated in the first place, only roughly gouged out, with a very roughly carved in bassbar, and never saw a plane or scraper. I've seen thicknesses of 6mm.

 

Dutzend.jpg

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2 hours ago, FiddleDoug said:

If you had ever opened one up you probably wouldn't ask that question. The tops on a lot of those old dutzenarbiet instruments were never really graduated in the first place, only roughly gouged out, with a very roughly carved in bassbar, and never saw a plane or scraper. I've seen thicknesses of 6mm.

 

Dutzend.jpg

How do you know that the original maker didnt work years to perfect that top plate, and those gouge marks are not just random, but designed to produce the perfect sound for the time period?  Now it will be lost forever.

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24 minutes ago, deans said:

How do you know that the original maker didnt work years to perfect that top plate, and those gouge marks are not just random, but designed to produce the perfect sound for the time period?  Now it will be lost forever.

You're right. I should have paid closer attention to the tap tones as original.

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41 minutes ago, deans said:

How do you know that the original maker didnt work years to perfect that top plate, and those gouge marks are not just random, but designed to produce the perfect sound for the time period?  Now it will be lost forever.

:ph34r:

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1 hour ago, deans said:

How do you know that the original maker didnt work years to perfect that top plate, and those gouge marks are not just random, but designed to produce the perfect sound for the time period?  Now it will be lost forever.

coffeescreen.gif.26d483e89e2f912b231b1799bb347c2c.gif  :P

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4 hours ago, FiddleDoug said:

If you had ever opened one up you probably wouldn't ask that question. The tops on a lot of those old dutzenarbiet instruments were never really graduated in the first place, only roughly gouged out, with a very roughly carved in bassbar, and never saw a plane or scraper. I've seen thicknesses of 6mm.

 

Dutzend.jpg

Isn't leaning one of those up against a copy of The Art of Violin Making a fire hazard?  :lol:

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16 hours ago, FiddleDoug said:

If you had ever opened one up you probably wouldn't ask that question. The tops on a lot of those old dutzenarbiet instruments were never really graduated in the first place, only roughly gouged out, with a very roughly carved in bassbar, and never saw a plane or scraper. I've seen thicknesses of 6mm.

 

Dutzend.jpg

I think a better solution might be to not buy violins that are carved like this in the first place?

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2 hours ago, Strad O Various Jr. said:

I think a better solution might be to not buy violins that are carved like this in the first place?

I dont know if any one actually buys these. Sometimes they just show up at your doorstep.

I think for a lot of shops reworking these was a way to supply OK student instruments. Probably getting less practical with Chinese supplying that market.

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19 hours ago, FiddleDoug said:

If you had ever opened one up you probably wouldn't ask that question. The tops on a lot of those old dutzenarbiet instruments were never really graduated in the first place, only roughly gouged out, with a very roughly carved in bassbar, and never saw a plane or scraper. I've seen thicknesses of 6mm.

 

Dutzend.jpg

When speaking of “Dutzendarbeit” one should remember that a wide range of quality was offered. There were “ordinare” violins (ike the one you illustrated) at a price between 18 and 30 Marks per DOZEN, the medium quality from 30 till 144 Marks per Dozen, and the “fein” ones with prices up to 100 Marks each. The parsimonious yanks mostly bough the cheapest ones for the various department stores, so that the cheap ones aren’t “graduated” are your own fault, since you were too stingy to pay for it

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2 minutes ago, jacobsaunders said:

When speaking of “Dutzendarbeit” one should remember that a wide range of quality was offered. There were “ordinare” violins (ike the one you illustrated) at a price between 18 and 30 Marks per DOZEN, the medium quality from 30 till 144 Marks per Dozen, and the “fein” ones with prices up to 100 Marks each. The parsimonious yanks mostly bough the cheapest ones for the various department stores, so that the cheap ones aren’t “graduated” are your own fault, since you were too stingy to pay for it

Well...that does explain part the dichotomy and on-going confusion...

1.  If only the cheap 'cheap' violins were available in North America...then that's mostly what you'd see available now (in shops, on eBay, etc.)...

2.  If the 'fein' 'cheap' violins remained in Europe...you would see many more of those available in Europe.

But...when 'we' talk about dutzenarbeit violins on MN (in general), that distinction disappears - which explains why North Americans keep thinking that their dutzenarbeit violins must be worth more than they are. 

Maybe we need to fine tune (pun intended) a bit more, when discussing this group of instruments:

1. Low end dutzenarbeit

2. Middle range dutzenarbeit

3. Best quality dutzenarbeit

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