Fetique Stick? And if not, any ideas?

[Brad Dorsey]

11 hours ago, PhilipKT said:

...Why didn’t he just shorten the hair?...

Obviously he (or she) didn't know how to.  Shortening hair, or rehairing a bow, is a complete mystery to most people, but any idiot with a little chisel can cut the mortise a little longer.  And too many have.

[PhilipKT]

@martin swan 

Martin if you will allow me to tug your sleeve yet one more time...

You said a Sartory made by Jules Fetique is still a Sartory. Wouldn’t it rather be a Jules Fetique? Even if it had a Sartory stamp?

Would it be priced as a Sartory and therefore worth more or less than the same bow with a Jules Fetique stamp? I’m not sure how such things are priced.

Regarding this bow, after reading Paulo’s entry, I realize that even if this bow came out of Victor’s shop, it could come from one of many hands. However, Wouldn’t it be worth more if the specific hand could be identified?

Thanks.

[martin swan]

6 hours ago, PhilipKT said:

@martin swan 

 

Regarding this bow, after reading Paulo’s entry, I realize that even if this bow came out of Victor’s shop, it could come from one of many hands. However, Wouldn’t it be worth more if the specific hand could be identified?

 

Probably less ...

By some illogical quirk, if an apprentice or co-worker's hand can be identified, it's always worth less, That apprentice or co-worker may have contributed just as much to other bows, but if the name creeps onto the certificate the value takes a big hit.

It's like Stradivari - everyone knows that Omobono Stradivari and others must have been doing something in the workshop, not just sweeping the floor, but tf the certificate says "showing the hand of Omobono Stradivari" it's worth less than half.

[martin swan]

7 hours ago, PhilipKT said:

 

You said a Sartory made by Jules Fetique is still a Sartory. Wouldn’t it rather be a Jules Fetique? Even if it had a Sartory stamp?

Would it be priced as a Sartory and therefore worth more or less than the same bow with a Jules Fetique stamp? I’m not sure how such things are priced.

 

Any bow with an authentic Sartory stamp would be worth more than a bow with a Jules Fétique stamp.

This was probably a bad example since Jules Fétique is thought to have mainly worked on the frogs. Louis Morizot and Henri Gillet were also collaborators, and certainly in Gillet's case we believe that entire bows were made by him on Sartory's model, under Sartory's supervision, and sold by Sartory as a Sartory bow.

So, if the bow is certified as a Sartory, it's just a Sartory. If it's certified as "showing the hand" of one of the co-workers, then it's priced somewhere in between the recognized value for each maker.

This is of course a logical mess of the first order, derived perhaps from the fact that musicians insist on believing that the name on their violin's label or their bow's brand is that of a solitary genius. I think musicians apply the paradigm of a composer rather than the more accurate model of a silversmith or a cabinet-maker ie. an apprentice and guild based craftsperson.

[Stephen Fine]

23 hours ago, PhilipKT said:

I think there’s a real need for a true apprentice system...

 

One of my favorite podcasts is hosted by Russ Roberts, a libertarian economist at Stanford's Hoover Institution.  He does a weekly hour long interview show called EconTalk that's absolutely fabulous.  He recently interviewed Robert Lerman on the topic of Apprenticeships (looking mostly at the European models, something most US citizens are undoubtedly unfamiliar with).

One of Russ's recurring gripes is with the modern belief that "everyone should go to college".  Not only is college not an ideal learning environment for everyone, but it's led to the student debt crisis and doesn't do a good job of preparing people for the job market (arguably, that's not its purpose).

[Violadamore]

22 minutes ago, Stephen Fine said:

One of my favorite podcasts is hosted by Russ Roberts, a libertarian economist at Stanford's Hoover Institution.  He does a weekly hour long interview show called EconTalk that's absolutely fabulous.  He recently interviewed Robert Lerman on the topic of Apprenticeships (looking mostly at the European models, something most US citizens are undoubtedly unfamiliar with).

One of Russ's recurring gripes is with the modern belief that "everyone should go to college".  Not only is college not an ideal learning environment for everyone, but it's led to the student debt crisis and doesn't do a good job of preparing people for the job market (arguably, that's not its purpose).

IMHO, the underlying problem is with the various HR departments who write the job requirements.  They seem fixated on the idea that every secretary, office clerk, or technician needs a bachelor's degree in something (usually, in what doesn't matter much) to ensure that they are housebroken, which is elitist nonsense.  I suspect that many of the people who worked for me 30 and 40 years ago couldn't get a decent job today, as college degrees are now treated as what a high-school diploma used to be.

[PhilipKT]

36 minutes ago, Stephen Fine said:

One of my favorite podcasts is hosted by Russ Roberts, a libertarian economist at Stanford's Hoover Institution.  He does a weekly hour long interview show called EconTalk that's absolutely fabulous.  He recently interviewed Robert Lerman on the topic of Apprenticeships (looking mostly at the European models, something most US citizens are undoubtedly unfamiliar with).

One of Russ's recurring gripes is with the modern belief that "everyone should go to college".  Not only is college not an ideal learning environment for everyone, but it's led to the student debt crisis and doesn't do a good job of preparing people for the job market (arguably, that's not its purpose).

I agree totally. I remember, back in High School, back in the old days, discussing college with my beloved German Teacher. She said that in Germany, college is free... BUT, you have to sit for wildly difficult entrance exams. If you pass, they tell you what college you will attend, and if you don’t, you go to trade school( I think you’re allowed to re-sit the exams if you fail, but I don’t recall.) I think this idea has merit.

backing up a bit, I strongly feel the approach to education needs to be completely re-thought. It’s way too restrictive. Montessori was on the right Track, but even she missed some important things.

But yes, Mr Roberts is quite right. College is a false goal for many people, but too many others benefit from perpetuating that goal.

[PhilipKT]

5 hours ago, martin swan said:

Any bow with an authentic Sartory stamp would be worth more than a bow with a Jules Fétique stamp.

This was probably a bad example since Jules Fétique is thought to have mainly worked on the frogs. Louis Morizot and Henri Gillet were also collaborators, and certainly in Gillet's case we believe that entire bows were made by him on Sartory's model, under Sartory's supervision, and sold by Sartory as a Sartory bow.

So, if the bow is certified as a Sartory, it's just a Sartory. If it's certified as "showing the hand" of one of the co-workers, then it's priced somewhere in between the recognized value for each maker.

This is of course a logical mess of the first order, derived perhaps from the fact that musicians insist on believing that the name on their violin's label or their bow's brand is that of a solitary genius. I think musicians apply the paradigm of a composer rather than the more accurate model of a silversmith or a cabinet-maker ie. an apprentice and guild based craftsperson.

That’s quite illuminating information.

“ This bow was clearly made by Fetique, buuuuuut it’s got a Caressa & Francais stamp, so it’s only worth 60% of a Fetique.”

”But it IS a Fetique! You just said so!”

” No, it’s a Caressa & Francais..... made by Fetique..”

”BUT YOU JUST SAID....”

And round and round they go.

So someone gets a great buy on a Caressa & Francais.... that was made by Fetique.

Oy.

[Wood Butcher]

39 minutes ago, Stephen Fine said:

One of my favorite podcasts is hosted by Russ Roberts, a libertarian economist at Stanford's Hoover Institution.  He does a weekly hour long interview show called EconTalk that's absolutely fabulous.  He recently interviewed Robert Lerman on the topic of Apprenticeships (looking mostly at the European models, something most US citizens are undoubtedly unfamiliar with).

I don't think that the traditional apprenticeship of the 18th,19th or early 20thC can ever be revived, without a strong guild system.
As it was in the past, training was given for a set period of years, in exchange for board and food. One then became a journeyman, could later apply to a guild, and if passing the required tests & conditions would be able to run their own business. Any master passing on their skills, had a cushion against competition for a time.

Now the burden and cost of training falls to a master. They could train someone, who could leave whenever they like, and set up shop next door. As it currently stands, it is hard to see much incentive to do this.
Not many would accept working for years for only board and food, which would not meet minimum wage requirements or employee rights

[martin swan]

45 minutes ago, PhilipKT said:

That’s quite illuminating information.

“ This bow was clearly made by Fetique, buuuuuut it’s got a Caressa & Francais stamp, so it’s only worth 60% of a Fetique.”

”But it IS a Fetique! You just said so!”

” No, it’s a Caressa & Francais..... made by Fetique..”

”BUT YOU JUST SAID....”

And round and round they go.

So someone gets a great buy on a Caressa & Francais.... that was made by Fetique.

Oy.

No .....

The brand is irrelevant.

a Fetique with a Caressa & Francais stamp is still a Fetique.

[PhilipKT]

13 minutes ago, martin swan said:

No .....

The brand is irrelevant.

a Fetique with a Caressa & Francais stamp is still a Fetique.

But didn’t  you just say that a Sartory made by Henri Gillet is still a Sartory?

[martin swan]

1 hour ago, PhilipKT said:

But didn’t  you just say that a Sartory made by Henri Gillet is still a Sartory?

You are confusing two different things

bows made by a specific maker and supplied unbranded to a violinmaker or retailer

bows made by a co-worker or apprentice but stamped by the master

[PhilipKT]

4 minutes ago, martin swan said:

You are confusing two different things

bows made by a specific maker and supplied unbranded to a violinmaker or retailer

bows made by a co-worker or apprentice but stamped by the master

All right, I understand The distinction. Thank you, yes as you said the illogic is of the first order.

[martin swan]

1 minute ago, PhilipKT said:

All right, I understand The distinction. Thank you, yes as you said the illogic is of the first order.

It can get a lot worse ....

[PhilipKT]

58 minutes ago, martin swan said:

It can get a lot worse ....

So just to be clear: if Fetique is working in the Sartory shop and makes a bow, it is stamped and sold as a Sartory.

But if Fetique makes a bow and sends it to Caressa, who stamps it “Caressa & Francais” it remains a Fetique in terms of value.

Even if the two bows were made side by side on Fetique’s happiest day.

I do get it, but I don’t get it.

[martin swan]

2 hours ago, PhilipKT said:

So just to be clear: if Fetique is working in the Sartory shop and makes a bow, it is stamped and sold as a Sartory.

But if Fetique makes a bow and sends it to Caressa, who stamps it “Caressa & Francais” it remains a Fetique in terms of value.

Even if the two bows were made side by side on Fetique’s happiest day.

I do get it, but I don’t get it.

Much more complicated than that - I'll try and get back to you tomorrow!

[PhilipKT]

7 minutes ago, martin swan said:

Much more complicated than that - I'll try and get back to you tomorrow!

Martin, I am grateful for your efforts. I really wish you were closer than across the Atlantic. I would love to come bother you in person.

[Stephen Fine]

On 7/22/2020 at 11:05 AM, Wood Butcher said:

I don't think that the traditional apprenticeship of the 18th,19th or early 20thC can ever be revived, without a strong guild system.

You should listen to the podcast.  The apprenticeship system is alive and well in Europe.  (Some countries have a much stronger system than others.)

[GennadyF.]

Interesting thread. Btw, according to Sartory, his assistants did the rough work. He would finish all the bows himself. 

If you are interested, you can read my article from February Strad issue 2019 about Sartory and his legal battles against trademark infringement in America.  Although Monsieur Sartory refrained from disclosing the names of his workmen/assistants in his deposition, we do know that prior to WWI, Sartory hired Jules Fetique in 1902, who stayed as his assistant until 1934. 

[GennadyF.]

Hello friends,

My publication is out: "Sartory and the case of spurious bows" it is the complete story of Sartory's court battle in the US, and includes a lot of new important statistical information regarding his working methods etc.

I tried to download the photo here, but no luck.

Here is a link to a post on FB 

 (3) Les Archetiers - Bow Makers : Dear all, my new publication "Sartory and the case of spurious bows" is out | Facebook