under sized violins

[Garth E.]

Could someone tell me when undersized violins were first introduced. I don't see too many as collectibles . Were they just considered kids toys made by apprentices? My interest is mainly 3/4 size. 

[Rue]

They've been around pretty much from the beginning.  Kids (and small adults) always used smaller instruments.

However, I don't know when the sizing options became 'standardized'.  3/4 is quite common.  7/8 too (AKA ladies' violin).

The properly functioning ones were not toys.  Too much effort is put in to make them as just toys.

The most common current sizes: 1/16, 1/10, 1/8, 1/4, 1/2, 3/4.  There is also 1/32 and 1/64th.  A 1/64th is primarily a toy, even if well made; most kids wouldn't need, or use, one for any length of time.  1/32 are more common with the 2-3 years that play, but even then most would start on a 1/16 or 1/10.

[GeorgeH]

Given the rambunctious proclivities of the age group using smaller violins, it is easy to understand why they would not have the longevity of full-size instruments, and why good vintage bench-made fractionals are not very common and also why parents are reluctant to pay high prices for them. 

[stringcheese]

I have to assume that they go back a long way. The vast majority of what we see are somewhat clunky student instruments, but there are occasional exceptions. One of the nicer ones I had was an E. R. Schmidt made in 1891, pretty early for one of his, and maybe a bit better than some of the later "production" Schmidts. Still sold for considerably less than a full size example though.

[Garth E.]

2 hours ago, Rue said:

The properly functioning ones were not toys.  Too much effort is put in to make them as just toys.

I agree,  a little under an inch difference would still require a lot of skill to get it right.

[Michael Darnton]

Instruments in small sizes have been around for a long time. The late 1700s seem to be a special boom time in this regard.

Charles Beare used to have a display in the front room of his shop of a bunch by different well-respected makers of older times. 

[Guido]

Just flicked through a book on Stainer the other night and saw a picture/drawing out of a Stainer contemporary book (as far as I remember) showing all sorts of sizes of violin family instruments, noting the smaller ones where usually tuned to a higher pitch, the smallest apparently an octave above the "standard" violin.

MN member @BassClef has amassed a bit of a collection of tiny treasures and you can find them in his threads.

Sizes vary and don't necessarily relate to modern "standards", for instance I have a JTL late 19th century pretty much exactly in the middle between a modern 1/4 size and 1/2 size, really don't know what to call it (except for maybe a 1/3 ;-)

[Garth E.]

32 minutes ago, Michael Darnton said:

Instruments in small sizes have been around for a long time. The late 1700s seem to be a special boom time in this regard.

Charles Beare used to have a display in the front room of his shop of a bunch by different well-respected makers of older times. 

Would love to know some of those makers names. I have an old one that I think is from those old days. Thanks Michael.

[Garth E.]

3 minutes ago, Guido said:

Just flicked through a book on Stainer the other night and saw a picture/drawing out of a Stainer contemporary book (as far as I remember) showing all sorts of sizes of violin family instruments, noting the smaller ones where usually tuned to a higher pitch, the smallest apparently an octave above the "standard" violin.

MN member @BassClef has amassed a bit of a collection of tiny treasures and you can find them in his threads.

Sizes vary and don't necessarily relate to modern "standards", for instance I have a JTL late 19th century pretty much exactly in the middle between a modern 1/4 size and 1/2 size, really don't know what to call it (except for maybe a 1/3 ;-)

Great information. Will definately check out @BassClef.

[Michael Darnton]

There was a catalogue printed, which I own, of this exhibit:

https://maestronet.com/forum/index.php?/topic/332492-famous-and-historic-fractionals/&do=findComment&comment=675287

 

[Garth E.]

29 minutes ago, Michael Darnton said:

There was a catalogue printed, which I own, of this exhibit:

Thanks for that interesting link. Would love to page through that catalogue.

[Three13]

While we're talking fractionals, did anyone get to play the small Ceruti that just sold at Skinner? It seemed like it went for a very reasonable price.

[Garth E.]

On 7/17/2020 at 1:05 PM, Rue said:

They've been around pretty much from the beginning.  Kids (and small adults) always used smaller instruments.

However, I don't know when the sizing options became 'standardized'.  3/4 is quite common.  7/8 too (AKA ladies' violin).

The properly functioning ones were not toys.  Too much effort is put in to make them as just toys.

The most common current sizes: 1/16, 1/10, 1/8, 1/4, 1/2, 3/4.  There is also 1/32 and 1/64th.  A 1/64th is primarily a toy, even if well made; most kids wouldn't need, or use, one for any length of time.  1/32 are more common with the 2-3 years that play, but even then most would start on a 1/16 or 1/10.

Thanks Rue, didn't know there were so many fractional sizes. Some would seem impossible to play, but great to collect.

[Rue]

Fractionals would make a cute collection!

Sound quality is rarely good - given the physics of size and lack of a market. Kids outgrow the fractionals too quickly. Because of that most parents can't afford to buy expensive fractionals or just don't want to, because sound quality doesn't really matter to a 3-year old. 

By the time it matters to the child, they are playing a larger fractional where it's easier to make one that sounds better.

This cutie started on a 1/16:

She's now on a 1/4:

 

[Marty Kasprzyk]

Who ever came up with the idea of 1/16, 1/10, 1/8, 1/4 .... instrument fraction size descriptions was an idiot.  Maybe it was the same person who invented women's dress sizes.

[matesic]

Don't they represent volumetric proportions? Not idiotic at all.

I assumed wrong! 1/8 size would then be 50% of full body length but it's more like 70%

Edited July 20, 2020 by matesic

[l33tplaya]

On 7/18/2020 at 7:29 PM, Three13 said:

While we're talking fractionals, did anyone get to play the small Ceruti that just sold at Skinner? It seemed like it went for a very reasonable price.

I don't think that was a Ceruti...

[Felefar]

I saw somewhere a hypothesis that the 1/4 size was originally made as a "sopranino" instrument, to be tuned one fourth higher than a normal violin. That makes it one octave higher than a viola. 

Then all the other sizes got their name by filling in the gaps around full size and 1/4.