Is this exclusive to a particular maker?

[Garth E.]

I'd have to have a better look at the ends of the pegs. Maybe scratched. 

I agree about the homage to Amati. I think a simple "in the style of" may be all it is. It's the Bernardel inscription in French that is a mystery to me. That's a different nib and writer. It says retuble par Bernardel a Paris 1854. Maybe the work was done by one of Sebastiens sons. Either Gustav or Ernest. They were probably in the shop helping dad in 1854 ,not being taken in full time until 1860. Just a guess as I don't think Sebastien would sign anything like that. However I do believe the violin was in the shop for something. Maybe at one time it was a beautiful violin.

[Blank face]

10 hours ago, jandepora said:

 

But it has the ribs in a channel in the back... Maybe french or Dutch?

Yes, there’s clearly a channel for the ribs visible at the end of the bottom corners.

Looking at the scroll I would assume French, or by a maker being trained in the French school. Maybe the neck heel was set higher to get the high overstand?

[Violadamore]

7 hours ago, Garth E. said:

I'd have to have a better look at the ends of the pegs. Maybe scratched. 

I agree about the homage to Amati. I think a simple "in the style of" may be all it is. It's the Bernardel inscription in French that is a mystery to me. That's a different nib and writer. It says retuble par Bernardel a Paris 1854. Maybe the work was done by one of Sebastiens sons. Either Gustav or Ernest. They were probably in the shop helping dad in 1854 ,not being taken in full time until 1860. Just a guess as I don't think Sebastien would sign anything like that. However I do believe the violin was in the shop for something. Maybe at one time it was a beautiful violin.

That's "retouble", and means "retouched".  Probably it was put back in playing order.  

[Garth E.]

20 hours ago, Blank face said:

Thanks for the photos, now it looks much more interesting than I was assuming. 
More questions: Is the scroll fluted to the absolute end at the front, and is there a groove for the ribs at the bottom?

Could you take flush straight side views of the scroll, bird views of the rib corners/rib joints and the inside bottom?

I took these photos this morning of the rib corners. Hope these help.

[Blank face]

The rib joints confirm that it is of the “built on the back with the ribs let into a groove/channel “ type. It reminds me of the Chappuy branded violins from Mirecourt and could be from the last quarter of the 18th century. Interesting that it was also made with a through neck, which was most probably set higher at the heel. Could we see a photo of that region (neck heel at the outside), too?

[Garth E.]

5 hours ago, Blank face said:

The rib joints confirm that it is of the “built on the back with the ribs let into a groove/channel “ type. It reminds me of the Chappuy branded violins from Mirecourt and could be from the last quarter of the 18th century. Interesting that it was also made with a through neck, which was most probably set higher at the heel. Could we see a photo of that region (neck heel at the outside), too?

Incredibly interesting. Here's the neck heel.

[Garth E.]

On 7/6/2020 at 6:03 PM, Delabo said:

Do some of the pegs have a monogram on the end grain or is it  just a trick of the  light ?

I had originally thought just scratches. Now it appears the marks are raised. Like an x. I will have a much closer examination. Just on 3 pegs, one is not original.

[Garth E.]

Thank-you for all the comments and opinions. Especially Blank face for steering me in the right direction as to a French connection based on the general construction. 

[Michael Appleman]

On 7/7/2020 at 10:22 AM, Violadamore said:

That's "retouble", and means "retouched".  Probably it was put back in playing order.  

Whatever it is, it's not French, I'm afraid. It's someone trying to copy French without knowing what he was writing. It doesn't mean anything, really. "Retablé" would have meant he replaced the top. "Rétabli" would mean "ré-established" and could be interpreted as "restored," but that's not really "luthier-speak." Although the violin does look like it could be old french work, the inscription, "retubli" is meaningless.

[Michael Appleman]

On 7/7/2020 at 1:03 AM, Delabo said:

It appears that the ribs are in a groove in the back so could this be French with a rare through neck ?

Nothing rare about a through-neck for older french work. It was the main way to attach necks through most of the 18th century. I mentioned years ago that I had a french violin with an early "modern" morticed neck, that for "stylistic" reasons I would have dated as early as the 1760's, but no original label so that's just specuation. The morticed necks start regularly appearing after 1780 or so, mostly in Paris, and don't seem to become universal in Mirecourt until 1800 or so.

[Garth E.]

6 minutes ago, Michael Appleman said:

Nothing rare about a through-neck for older french work. It was the main way to attach necks through most of the 18th century.

That's interesting Michael, were there other characteristics over that 100 years that would help identify a possible maker?

[Michael Appleman]

39 minutes ago, Garth E. said:

That's interesting Michael, were there other characteristics over that 100 years that would help identify a possible maker?

I'm afraid I don't know who made your violin. There is something "early Charotte-ish" about it, but I'm afraid it doesn't really correspond to a maker or a workshop I know. There are some violins that Rampal has ascribed to Frebrunet that also look a little like this, but I'm afraid it's still a bit "out of the norm," compared to what I've seen.

Your question about "characteristics" is a bit troubling, though, as though "characteristics" might be the key to identifying a maker. Certain characteristics have been pointed out to you already, like the ribs in a groove, the "equilateral triangle" corner blocks, the scroll carved to the end of the throat...these "characteristics" can help rule out certain cities or schools for the origin of this violin. We can rule out Cremona, (most of Italy, basically), Mittenwald, (Vienna, Prague etc.), Markneukirchen, London...but the terrain is still pretty large, with possible places of origin still being Paris, Mirecourt, all over France, Belgium, and also remotely possible: Holland and Piedmont, though those seem fairly unlikely to me. 

"Characteristics" aren't enough to identify a violin maker. A violin has to correspond in all the important details to other known examples of a given maker in order to be identified. A violin with the "right" charateristics but not looking like any known examples of a known maker can at best be called a "school of" something.

 

[Michael Appleman]

Actually, the more I look at it, the more it's looking like a Frebrunet to me. Send pictures to Rampal.

[Violadamore]

1 hour ago, Michael Appleman said:

Whatever it is, it's not French, I'm afraid. It's someone trying to copy French without knowing what he was writing. It doesn't mean anything, really. "Retablé" would have meant he replaced the top. "Rétabli" would mean "ré-established" and could be interpreted as "restored," but that's not really "luthier-speak." Although the violin does look like it could be old french work, the inscription, "retubli" is meaningless.

I figured it's egregiously misspelled French, and made an allowance for that.  Ever looked at French street graffiti? 

[Michael Appleman]

16 minutes ago, Violadamore said:

I figured it's egregiously misspelled French, and made an allowance for that.  Ever looked at French street graffiti? 

I'm surrounded by it...

Seriously, I'm a bit troubled by the letter "a" in the first inscription. There's a nice closed "a" in the word "par" (by) but the "a"s in "Ret(u)bli," "Bern(u)rdel," and even "P(u)ris" are all open like "u"s, and what should be an "à," (an "a" with an accent) before Paris is a bit of a scrawl that's neither "a" nor "u." I will look through some of my documents to see if I can find writing like this from someone from the Bernardel shop/family, though I still tend to think this is just an attempt to copy an inscription from elsewhere without fully understanding what was being written.

[Michael Appleman]

Also, regarding "retabli" as not being "luthier-speak," I'm remembering that I have a Chappuy viola with a 19th century repair label which might use that term...unfortunately I just lent that viola out for the summer...I'll see if my student can look inside it.

[Garth E.]

28 minutes ago, Michael Appleman said:

I'm surrounded by it...

Seriously, I'm a bit troubled by the letter "a" in the first inscription. There's a nice closed "a" in the word "par" (by) but the "a"s in "Ret(u)bli," "Bern(u)rdel," and even "P(u)ris" are all open like "u"s, and what should be an "à," (an "a" with an accent) before Paris is a bit of a scrawl that's neither "a" nor "u." I will look through some of my documents to see if I can find writing like this from someone from the Bernardel shop/family, though I still tend to think this is just an attempt to copy an inscription from elsewhere without fully understanding what was being written.

This is terribly subjective, however in all fairness to the writer, he would have been writing at app. a downward 25 degree angle as would the other fellow with his latin. His nib has lifted a few times causing blurs and misses. I doubt very much the Bernardel writing is Sebastien's, maybe one of his son's could do the work necessary by 1854.

[Garth E.]

8 minutes ago, Garth E. said:

This is terribly subjective, however in all fairness to the writer, he would have been writing at app. a downward 25 degree angle as would the other fellow with his latin. His nib has lifted a few times causing blurs and misses. I doubt very much the Bernardel writing is Sebastien's, maybe one of his son's could do the work necessary by 1854.

Maybe this picture is a little better to see the writing.

[Garth E.]

Thank-you Michael Appleman and Violadamore for your time and expertise. Very interesting and informative. 

[Violadamore]

6 hours ago, Michael Appleman said:

I'm surrounded by it...

Seriously, I'm a bit troubled by the letter "a" in the first inscription. There's a nice closed "a" in the word "par" (by) but the "a"s in "Ret(u)bli," "Bern(u)rdel," and even "P(u)ris" are all open like "u"s, and what should be an "à," (an "a" with an accent) before Paris is a bit of a scrawl that's neither "a" nor "u." I will look through some of my documents to see if I can find writing like this from someone from the Bernardel shop/family, though I still tend to think this is just an attempt to copy an inscription from elsewhere without fully understanding what was being written.

Here's an enhanced crop from the last photo posted.

[Michael Appleman]

Garth, if you'd like more help here, please post well-lit straight-on photos of the front and back. I'm getting a sense of the outline and proportions from the different photos, but it's still somewhat vague to me. Focusing on the details and the inscription is really more of a distraction from trying to identify the violin. 

[Garth E.]

4 hours ago, Michael Appleman said:

Garth, if you'd like more help here, please post well-lit straight-on photos of the front and back.

Thank-you Michael, these are some morning light photos front and back this am. Hope they are ok.

[Michael Appleman]

Those are nice photos, garth, but they're not "straight-on," so it's still impossible to get a sense of the outline and proportions, elements that are essential for identifying a maker's work. Here are the types of photos that could be better, in this case of a Frebrunet that I had not too long ago.

 

[Garth E.]

11 minutes ago, Michael Appleman said:

they're not "straight-on," so it's still impossible to get a sense of the outline and proportions, elements that are essential for identifying a maker's work

Ok

[Delabo]

On 7/9/2020 at 7:04 PM, Michael Appleman said:

Nothing rare about a through-neck for older french work. It was the main way to attach necks through most of the 18th century. I mentioned years ago that I had a french violin with an early "modern" morticed neck, that for "stylistic" reasons I would have dated as early as the 1760's, but no original label so that's just specuation. The morticed necks start regularly appearing after 1780 or so, mostly in Paris, and don't seem to become universal in Mirecourt until 1800 or so.

Thanks for that information about French through necks.

With regard to the word "retabli" -  it jogged some memory cells and I looked at a violin I own and took this picture through the f hole which seems similar...........

it seems to say "retabli par Caufoin Neuchateau 1865" if this is any help with unlocking the mystery word ?