Is this exclusive to a particular maker?

[Garth E.]

There are 3 nails hammered into the raised back. I've never seen this before. I believe it to be English mid 1700's. This violin needs a lot of money spent on it. I'm sure it fell under a carriage. I can post more later as this violin is truly a mystery. I'm taking this restoration slowly. Really hope I can find some help here without being a pest.

[Wood Butcher]

Looks like some repair from when the through neck departed the back. I don't think it will be English or mid 1700's.

[Blank face]

Looks like a very common through neck from Saxony, the high overstand pointing to mid 19th century or later. The nails are most probably an amateurish repair.

[FiddleDoug]

2 minutes ago, Blank face said:

Looks like a very common through neck from Saxony, the high overstand pointing to mid 19th century or later. The nails are most probably an amateurish repair.

I agree with this. We also keep telling people that you can't just post one or two photos, and expect to get a good ID. Follow the guides at the top of the page.

[Wood Butcher]

7 minutes ago, Blank face said:

Looks like a very common through neck from Saxony, the high overstand pointing to mid 19th century or later.

Even higher now with that neck wedge

[Garth E.]

Although there was no label I found the inscription to be convincing. I was a collector of hand written documents from the 18th and 19th C through the 70's. The Bernardel date was also interesting. 

[Garth E.]

6 minutes ago, FiddleDoug said:

I agree with this. We also keep telling people that you can't just post one or two photos, and expect to get a good ID. Follow the guides at the top of the page.

I should have posted all the photos I apologize for that. I was hoping there would be something about the raised back only that might id it. I've already been to several excellent luthiers for opinions on the whole violin. I was just looking for an opinion on this through neck. Again, very sorry.

[Garth E.]

I really hoped I would not get into any controversial issues with my title question. I wasn't asking for a date or a nationality. I had only wanted to know if anyone had seen something like this neck protrusion...anywhere. Sorry again if it looks like I'm after an appraisal, I'm not. 

[Wood Butcher]

Since nails will not be original to the instrument, I can't see how it would help to identify anything.

What you are describing as a neck protrusion is known as a through neck. The neck being one piece, with the ribs fitted into the neck root. Rather than having a neck and a separate neck block inside the body. The platform on the back is necessary to glue the neck to.

Through necks are common however, so yes they have been seen before. Many times.
Being a widely used method, it is not exclusive to a particular maker or place.

[Garth E.]

27 minutes ago, Wood Butcher said:

Since nails will not be original to the instrument, I can't see how it would help to identify anything.

What you are describing as a neck protrusion is known as a through neck. The neck being one piece, with the ribs fitted into the neck root. Rather than having a neck and a separate neck block inside the body. The platform on the back is necessary to glue the neck to.

Through necks are common however, so yes they have been seen before. Many times.
Being a widely used method, it is not exclusive to a particular maker or place.

Thank-you, I think that is exactly what I was looking for.

[Shelbow]

I hope you post full pictures a bit later, I'm curious to see what it looks like.

[Garth E.]

On 7/6/2020 at 12:01 PM, Shelbow said:

I hope you post full pictures a bit later, I'm curious to see what it looks like.

I will. I admit I'm a little nervous doing that. 

[Shelbow]

Well I guess there is a chance it might be far away from what you think it is, and I can imagine that this could be concerning if there is money invested in it. But I think its always good to know for sure, it's good for educational purposes.

[Garth E.]

29 minutes ago, Shelbow said:

Well I guess there is a chance it might be far away from what you think it is, and I can imagine that this could be concerning if there is money invested in it. But I think its always good to know for sure, it's good for educational purposes.

When I was looking for a 18th c. violin I knew I was a little out of my depth. However what is in my knowledge based wheelhouse was the script. I studied it long with also a few other learned opinions that felt the inscription authentic. Not sure if Brompton's holds any weight here, but I did send photos to them for their opinion, John Egan and another specialist valued it at twice what I paid and said it was a very interesting instrument. Had it been a German piece of crap, they would have stated that. I had sent other photos of other violins to them where they did just that. One common thread that every luthier I've talked has said they do think it's very old. Probably English, possibly German. Learning about this violin is why I'm here. I can handle the truth. I just need to get to know everyone a little better.

 

[Shelbow]

Well sounds positive from the feedback you have got so far so don't be worried.

There are a lot of identification requests on here so people are quite blunt with their opinions, it's all useful info though.

[Garth E.]

On 7/6/2020 at 1:03 PM, Shelbow said:

Well sounds positive from the feedback you have got so far so don't be worried.

There are a lot of identification requests on here so people are quite blunt with their opinions, it's all useful info though.

I think what I did was put my helmet on a stick and just raised it slowly over the trench. Rather than just jump over. 

[Wood Butcher]

1 hour ago, Shelbow said:

 

There are a lot of identification requests on here so people are quite blunt with their opinions

One can only say what they think, if they are confident of an accurate identification.
It might not be what the person asking was hoping to hear, but there aren't many ways to try to dress that up.

[Blank face]

It’s quite right that we can’t identify neither a particular feature nor a whole violin by a single feature, therefore other posters were pointed to this often before.

It’s not very convincing nor polite to tell something like “I didn’t ask for an identification, just for one feature”, exactly this was discussed some days ago, too.

What we can see at the photos are the odd repair and an altered throughneck with a shape (high overstand) which would be very unusual for a pre mid 19th century date, to say it more conservative. It would be very unusual (though not completely impossible) to find such a neck construction outside the Saxon/West Bohemian region. If you’re doubting this, it’s impossible to check it without seeing more and detailed photos.

Inscriptions inside violins aren’t unusual at all, too, especially such ascribing the instrument to much older origins than they really are, and the writers also often are showing high skills to imitate ancient styles of lettering to make them more believable.

So it is impossible to hear more opinions about the instrument (to the risk you won’t like them) without showing more pictures or you keep it safe and uncommented.

[Garth E.]

Thank-you, Here's the violin. Please forgive my photo skills.  

[Three13]

I have an early 19th Century English or Scottish violin with a similar through neck. I also see what might be a Lockey Hill-style gouge in the back plate, although it's a bit oblong and far from the center of the plate compared to what I've seen.

The inscription is nonsense, as the last of the Amati had been dead for 16 years in 1756, and the method used to build this fiddle would have been alien to anyone with that surname.

[Blank face]

Thanks for the photos, now it looks much more interesting than I was assuming. 
More questions: Is the scroll fluted to the absolute end at the front, and is there a groove for the ribs at the bottom?

Could you take flush straight side views of the scroll, bird views of the rib corners/rib joints and the inside bottom?

[Garth E.]

On 7/6/2020 at 3:14 PM, Blank face said:

Thanks for the photos, now it looks much more interesting than I was assuming. 
More questions: Is the scroll fluted to the absolute end at the front, and is there a groove for the rid at the bottom?

Could you take flush straight side views of the scroll, bird views of the rib corners/rib joints and the inside bottom?

 Give me a little time to set that up. Thanks.

Hope these are ok. The fluting on the front of the scroll goes under all the way, as far as it can. I could not see a groove for the bottom plate.

[Garth E.]

On 7/6/2020 at 3:13 PM, Three13 said:

I have an early 19th Century English or Scottish violin with a similar through neck. I also see what might be a Lockey Hill-style gouge in the back plate, although it's a bit oblong and far from the center of the plate compared to what I've seen.

The inscription is nonsense, as the last of the Amati had been dead for 16 years in 1756, and the method used to build this fiddle would have been alien to anyone with that surname.

Thanks for that info. Of course that Amati thing is nonsense. Antonio died around 1607? Anyway, I read it as "in the style of" It's also signed by Alex MacVean from Anoch Scotland in 1930.

[jandepora]

1 hour ago, Garth E. said:

 

 

Point this to English origin?

But it has the ribs in a channel in the back... Maybe french or Dutch?

[Delabo]

It appears that the ribs are in a groove in the back so could this be French with a rare through neck ?

Maybe the maker put the inscription in as a homage to Amati .

Is it normal for a back groove construction violin to have a one piece bottom rib  ?

Do some of the pegs have a monogram on the end grain or is it  just a trick of the  light ?

Are the rib ends mitered ?